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the copenhagen interpretation which

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states that the act of measurement

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affects the system please the penrose

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interpretation which suggests that the

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wave function collapsed

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just to confirm yes you're in the right

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place this is skeptical this is yet

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another movie clip i'm playing for you

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this is from devs a series on netflix

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like this is really super duper

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mainstream and like right off the bat

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they are talking about the

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most fundamental issues of consciousness

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ai how robots are going to take over the

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world which of course that's true but

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also how robots may be

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creating a simulation that we're living

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in and all the rest that [\h__\h] that if

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you're into that stuff you better be

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into it it's the biggest thing right and

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it's directly directly relevant to this

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amazing interview i have coming up with

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andrew smart who's written a book on all

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this so

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back to the clip

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i want to talk to you about the von

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neumann vigner interpretation which

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states that human consciousness is the

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key modifier in d coherence are you

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[\h__\h] kidding

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painting

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you're offering a lecture on von neumann

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vigner

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are you serious

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half the people in this room are

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undergrads they might actually believe

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what you're saying

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there are many interesting conjectures

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within the theory it's duel as [\h__\h]

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which is the worst kind of [\h__\h]

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okay so there's like five different

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clips i could play for you from this

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upcoming interview with

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andrew smart but i'm going to kind of

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confine it very narrowly in this

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introduction even though we talk about

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all the really important [\h__\h] like

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is google the belly of the beast that

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has an unrelenting choke hold on our

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freedom and way of life as we know it we

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address that quite directly in this as

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we do uh demonetization but also you

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know social justice and

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search and the responsibility and scale

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which is really the issue you know i

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mean google does have a problem

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trillions of searches so

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they have a certain responsibility there

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that they're going to need some

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flexibility on handling even if they

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have to use gestapo tactics to do it i'm

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flavoring this it's it's really a good

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interview it's a fair balanced interview

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and i super appreciate and respect this

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guy andrew smart who you're gonna hear

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from but

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here's a clip and then we'll roll right

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into the interview the idea is that

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we'll these agis will be just like human

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minds they'll literally be

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minds

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and and so

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the the thought about lsd was then well

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if it's if it's

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basically indistinguishable from a human

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minded

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you know it's like

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how you would engineer a system

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that could be perturbed by lsd what i

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think has been the core question here a

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lot of times and i think is

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this question is skirted for the most

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part by the technology community and

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that is is it the turing test or is it

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the metaphysical test the question about

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consciousness is

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is it somehow

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fundamental

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welcome to skeptica where we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics i'm your host alex karas

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and i have a terrific guest for you

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today

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his name is andrew smart

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he's the author of a book from a few

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years ago but certainly an important

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relevant book beyond zero and one

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machines psychedelics and consciousness

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let me read for you a little bit of

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background

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on andrew you're gonna be blown away

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i have a broad yet deep background in

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science engineering and technology i

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specialize in the areas of brain imaging

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neurotechnology

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human computer interaction human factors

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data visualization and statistical

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analysis i'm primarily interested in the

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disciplinary intersections among

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cognitive science

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computer science

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artificial intelligence anthropology

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philosophy

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and human factors now

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as impressive as that sounds

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i would suggest that andrew is being

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somewhat modest i mean when you look him

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up let me pull this up on google scholar

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i mean man

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a lot of peer-reviewed very important

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papers and and then certainly if you

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look him up on linkedin i'm not gonna go

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there but i mean he is uh you know

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very very well positioned google worked

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at twitter before that you know

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really belly of the beast kind of jobs

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honeywell as well but we're going to

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talk all of that so

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i'm very very grateful that andrew has

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joined us today to talk about this book

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and other stuff andrew thanks for being

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here

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no thanks for having me on i i'm

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a little embarrassed by the introduction

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there is absolutely no way you should be

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i i

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really wish you would do

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uh more interviews i'd love to hear more

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of that but uh hey well i got i got a

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shot here so i can't i can't complain

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so t tell us

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you know let's start with the book

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beyond zero and one

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tell folks you know what they're gonna

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find

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yeah well um

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like you mentioned the book is is maybe

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five or six years old

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it's hard to remember now um in our

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weird you know time warp of covid

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but uh i

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so

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yeah

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you know i've long had this interest in

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in philosophy of mind and and ai

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and

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um had been following the debates about

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it ever since i was a student and

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um you know i and like like you

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mentioned i've worked in cognitive

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science and then different um

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you know brain imaging labs and i was

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at the time when i started writing the

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book i was working at novartis which is

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a big big pharma company in switzerland

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uh but it's actually where um

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lsd was first synthesized when when it

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used to be called sandoz where albert

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hoffman worked

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and i it turned out i was working for a

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time in the same building where

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hoffman's lab used to be in the 1940s

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let me interject something to set this

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up because maybe i put you too much on

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the spot

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and did it i mean when i say belly of

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the beast man i mean

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anyone who's into this stuff like the

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connections that just in your life are

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kind of like a little because right like

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what everyone the controversy is andrew

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here

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is

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a a minion of the robots who are going

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to take over the world right i mean

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that is like that that is like one way

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to catch this you know this is the guy

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who's developing the strong ai robots

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which we know are going to have a

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greater and greater enough tone it down

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a bit a greater and greater influence on

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everything whether it's law or whether

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you go see a therapist a doctor or

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whether you trade stocks or any of this

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stuff we all understand that artificial

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intelligence is

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so when you just mentioned two words you

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said the controversy surrounding this i

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just want to frame up and make sure

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everyone understands that this is like

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when people are into this is like like

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one of the the most important issues

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a lot bigger than a lot other yeah okay

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so go ahead come please continue because

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now we're back to the valley

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the

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whole book so

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go ahead i'm sorry

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oh sure no no yeah no well yeah we can

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get to my my job at google which is

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actually

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trying to constrain or or

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do some sort of risk assessments of

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those things that you just mentioned but

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we can

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um anyway i so

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if if people are familiar with the

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debates around agi or what they call

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artificial general intelligence

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and super intelligence and this is um

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this is it's it's still definitely a

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debate in the field about

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you know you you have a general purpose

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model

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that can do anything really and you and

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because now the way machine learning is

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developed is you they have specific

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tasks and they're not especially good in

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areas when you you know if you develop a

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thing that's supposed to detect

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a certain type of image and then you you

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use it in the real world it often fails

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um if it if it sees something that it's

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not used to

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in its in its distribution but

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anyway there's been a long strand of

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of work on this question of super

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intelligence and agi and human level

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artificial intelligence

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and

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there's a there's a niche there of

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philosophers

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like david chalmers for example who

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have been thinking about consciousness a

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lot and

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whether this agi would be conscious like

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uh and and that

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that was the the interesting part to me

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was this the and in the debates about

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agi consciousness is still quite taboo

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like people

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it's almost like a side issue that well

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as you as you point out in the book and

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i forget the exact quote but you said a

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lot of ai engineers

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question whether it's even relevant i

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mean so it's it's it's not even

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you know philosophically okay but who

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cares you know right and and and just a

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tiny bit on my background so i i do have

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an ai background so i i was a research

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associate at arizona and then i started

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an ai company mindpath technologies and

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we built these expert systems for dupont

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and texas instruments with this idea

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that we would you know somehow capture

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all the knowledge that these gold

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badgers had and you know preserve it and

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it didn't it didn't and none of it

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worked very good but i'm familiar with

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the thing i'm familiar with the issues

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and it was really cr i don't want to say

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it was crappy but i mean where ai is at

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now you know like uh alphago so like

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it's almost like you have to have seen

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the movie alphago and know the whole

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thing to even kind of enter into this

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conversation because what it's doing is

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kind of catapulted us to another level i

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mean before that it was big blue and can

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ai beat the best chess player in the

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world and now we're just we're just way

284
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way past that folks and like those

285
00:10:49,910 --> 00:10:45,440
issues are like way in the distance and

286
00:10:51,269 --> 00:10:49,920
what andrew is at the cutting edge of is

287
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okay these things are really really

288
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smart

289
00:10:56,949 --> 00:10:54,320
uh you know

290
00:10:58,790 --> 00:10:56,959
how smart could they possibly get and

291
00:11:03,269 --> 00:10:58,800
you pose this question again that kind

292
00:11:07,269 --> 00:11:03,279
of catapults us five steps beyond that

293
00:11:09,590 --> 00:11:07,279
can we build a robot that trips on acid

294
00:11:12,389 --> 00:11:09,600
so you tell us how you jump three steps

295
00:11:16,069 --> 00:11:12,399
ahead and say screw the deterring test

296
00:11:18,630 --> 00:11:16,079
this is the acid turing taste

297
00:11:20,310 --> 00:11:18,640
well i i did so and this is a weird like

298
00:11:24,150 --> 00:11:20,320
you were mentioning like a weird

299
00:11:26,069 --> 00:11:24,160
confluence of of things in my life where

300
00:11:27,910 --> 00:11:26,079
you know i had come from this

301
00:11:29,590 --> 00:11:27,920
sort of cognitive science ai background

302
00:11:30,550 --> 00:11:29,600
where i was studying and working and

303
00:11:32,069 --> 00:11:30,560
then

304
00:11:34,389 --> 00:11:32,079
i had i had moved to basel and

305
00:11:38,230 --> 00:11:34,399
switzerland to work at this company to

306
00:11:40,069 --> 00:11:38,240
work on on medical tech um and then

307
00:11:42,389 --> 00:11:40,079
you know i um

308
00:11:44,310 --> 00:11:42,399
i on the tram one day actually i just i

309
00:11:45,590 --> 00:11:44,320
was had been reading stuff and then

310
00:11:47,829 --> 00:11:45,600
you know i just had that thought like

311
00:11:49,990 --> 00:11:47,839
you have in the shower like

312
00:11:51,590 --> 00:11:50,000
you know what what if what could an ai

313
00:11:53,430 --> 00:11:51,600
trip on you know i've been reading about

314
00:11:54,629 --> 00:11:53,440
a lot about psychedelics i have my own

315
00:11:57,110 --> 00:11:54,639
you know i used i've explored

316
00:11:58,790 --> 00:11:57,120
psychedelics in my past and

317
00:12:00,710 --> 00:11:58,800
and i had read albert hoffman's book and

318
00:12:02,870 --> 00:12:00,720
i found the whole history of

319
00:12:04,310 --> 00:12:02,880
of lsd super fascinating and it's it's

320
00:12:07,030 --> 00:12:04,320
kind of a lost

321
00:12:09,430 --> 00:12:07,040
history especially in mainstream culture

322
00:12:11,829 --> 00:12:09,440
you know it's it's a very un

323
00:12:13,030 --> 00:12:11,839
underappreciated story can you talk

324
00:12:15,110 --> 00:12:13,040
about that a little bit because i think

325
00:12:17,430 --> 00:12:15,120
your insights in that or your telling of

326
00:12:19,190 --> 00:12:17,440
that history is super important and it's

327
00:12:20,470 --> 00:12:19,200
brilliant because it goes beyond

328
00:12:22,069 --> 00:12:20,480
psychedelic

329
00:12:24,790 --> 00:12:22,079
experience right

330
00:12:26,870 --> 00:12:24,800
it it changes the way we think about

331
00:12:28,629 --> 00:12:26,880
cognitive science and neuroscience that

332
00:12:30,710 --> 00:12:28,639
that's really important i hope can you

333
00:12:34,790 --> 00:12:30,720
share that

334
00:12:37,430 --> 00:12:34,800
well sure yeah and well and so the um

335
00:12:39,430 --> 00:12:37,440
you know so albert hoffman was this

336
00:12:42,470 --> 00:12:39,440
swiss chemist and you know working at

337
00:12:44,790 --> 00:12:42,480
was what was then sandow and in fossil

338
00:12:46,790 --> 00:12:44,800
and you know they were he was a

339
00:12:48,470 --> 00:12:46,800
you know like a chemist at a at a pharma

340
00:12:51,190 --> 00:12:48,480
company working on drug discovery you

341
00:12:52,870 --> 00:12:51,200
know like synthesizing new compounds you

342
00:12:55,110 --> 00:12:52,880
know trying to

343
00:12:57,110 --> 00:12:55,120
find things that were medically

344
00:12:59,269 --> 00:12:57,120
relevant and active he had been working

345
00:13:02,790 --> 00:12:59,279
with a series of different different

346
00:13:04,389 --> 00:13:02,800
derivatives of um of fungus and fungi

347
00:13:07,269 --> 00:13:04,399
and this you know that actually it's

348
00:13:08,949 --> 00:13:07,279
kind of a toxic thing if you if you get

349
00:13:09,750 --> 00:13:08,959
too much of it but

350
00:13:10,629 --> 00:13:09,760
he

351
00:13:12,389 --> 00:13:10,639
and

352
00:13:14,550 --> 00:13:12,399
i i think originally they were working

353
00:13:17,269 --> 00:13:14,560
on sort of respiratory they thought this

354
00:13:18,230 --> 00:13:17,279
was good for respiratory issues

355
00:13:21,430 --> 00:13:18,240
and

356
00:13:23,829 --> 00:13:21,440
you know he so he he had been working on

357
00:13:25,829 --> 00:13:23,839
this and the story is that

358
00:13:27,190 --> 00:13:25,839
you know at some point he was had

359
00:13:28,389 --> 00:13:27,200
synthesized a bunch of these different

360
00:13:31,910 --> 00:13:28,399
compounds

361
00:13:33,190 --> 00:13:31,920
and the 25th one that that lsd 25 is as

362
00:13:34,629 --> 00:13:33,200
it was called

363
00:13:36,310 --> 00:13:34,639
somehow in the lab one day he

364
00:13:38,949 --> 00:13:36,320
accidentally got some in his system i

365
00:13:40,550 --> 00:13:38,959
don't nobody knows quite got on his hand

366
00:13:43,030 --> 00:13:40,560
caught in his eye

367
00:13:44,870 --> 00:13:43,040
but he had about an hour or two where he

368
00:13:46,069 --> 00:13:44,880
saw these vivid colors he felt really

369
00:13:50,550 --> 00:13:46,079
strange

370
00:13:52,470 --> 00:13:50,560
thought maybe this was chloroform that

371
00:13:54,629 --> 00:13:52,480
he had accidentally ingested because

372
00:13:55,430 --> 00:13:54,639
they used that as a solvent

373
00:13:56,629 --> 00:13:55,440
and

374
00:13:58,150 --> 00:13:56,639
but then

375
00:14:00,069 --> 00:13:58,160
he he thought this was really odd so he

376
00:14:02,069 --> 00:14:00,079
went home and then he's he's he's like

377
00:14:05,670 --> 00:14:02,079
well maybe it is this stuff this this

378
00:14:07,910 --> 00:14:05,680
lacergic acid diethylamide and so

379
00:14:09,829 --> 00:14:07,920
he planned a self-experiment

380
00:14:11,269 --> 00:14:09,839
uh for the so he went home and then he's

381
00:14:13,590 --> 00:14:11,279
like and so he

382
00:14:15,110 --> 00:14:13,600
then he synthesized some more and he he

383
00:14:16,629 --> 00:14:15,120
thought he was just making this the

384
00:14:17,590 --> 00:14:16,639
tiniest dose

385
00:14:19,030 --> 00:14:17,600
that

386
00:14:20,550 --> 00:14:19,040
would do anything he didn't even think

387
00:14:21,990 --> 00:14:20,560
this would do anything

388
00:14:22,790 --> 00:14:22,000
and it turned out this is actually a

389
00:14:28,470 --> 00:14:22,800
pretty

390
00:14:30,150 --> 00:14:28,480
had you know the famous then he tried to

391
00:14:31,750 --> 00:14:30,160
ride his bike home from the lab because

392
00:14:33,430 --> 00:14:31,760
he started like what's you know he

393
00:14:35,910 --> 00:14:33,440
really thought he was going to die

394
00:14:38,710 --> 00:14:35,920
he was seeing devils and you know and he

395
00:14:40,150 --> 00:14:38,720
and he has you know he he writes that he

396
00:14:42,629 --> 00:14:40,160
he tried to ride his bike home he had no

397
00:14:45,269 --> 00:14:42,639
memory of moving on his bike

398
00:14:46,629 --> 00:14:45,279
but suddenly he was at his house

399
00:14:48,069 --> 00:14:46,639
and anyway

400
00:14:49,990 --> 00:14:48,079
he had this kind of you know the first

401
00:14:51,750 --> 00:14:50,000
acid trip and that's why we call it an

402
00:14:53,269 --> 00:14:51,760
acid trip because he was you know this

403
00:14:56,310 --> 00:14:53,279
this but the famous bicycle trip and

404
00:14:58,069 --> 00:14:56,320
actually every year in basel there's a

405
00:15:00,550 --> 00:14:58,079
on the on the date when this happened

406
00:15:03,430 --> 00:15:00,560
there's a bicycle tour from

407
00:15:08,629 --> 00:15:06,150
yeah um it's it's kind of a

408
00:15:10,550 --> 00:15:08,639
but so he then he reported this to his

409
00:15:11,509 --> 00:15:10,560
superiors and they were all skeptical

410
00:15:15,990 --> 00:15:11,519
and

411
00:15:16,949 --> 00:15:16,000
everyone realized like this is a very

412
00:15:18,949 --> 00:15:16,959
potent

413
00:15:20,870 --> 00:15:18,959
thing because it was such a tiny amount

414
00:15:23,430 --> 00:15:20,880
of active

415
00:15:25,350 --> 00:15:23,440
stuff that gave you a trip for you know

416
00:15:27,189 --> 00:15:25,360
eight 12 hours

417
00:15:29,189 --> 00:15:27,199
and yeah that that that started a whole

418
00:15:31,350 --> 00:15:29,199
a real serious drug development you know

419
00:15:32,550 --> 00:15:31,360
they did animal studies they did human

420
00:15:34,710 --> 00:15:32,560
studies

421
00:15:36,230 --> 00:15:34,720
um it looked really promising for

422
00:15:38,310 --> 00:15:36,240
treating alcoholism for treating

423
00:15:40,150 --> 00:15:38,320
depression there were thousands and

424
00:15:41,189 --> 00:15:40,160
thousands of studies done in papers

425
00:15:43,670 --> 00:15:41,199
written

426
00:15:45,910 --> 00:15:43,680
um and then you know the

427
00:15:47,910 --> 00:15:45,920
what he and he really intended it to be

428
00:15:50,629 --> 00:15:47,920
a serious

429
00:15:53,189 --> 00:15:50,639
psych you know psychiatric treatment and

430
00:15:56,389 --> 00:15:53,199
he wanted to to develop you know and so

431
00:15:57,749 --> 00:15:56,399
he was actually really dismayed with

432
00:16:00,389 --> 00:15:57,759
you know

433
00:16:02,389 --> 00:16:00,399
and he resented very much the hippie

434
00:16:05,590 --> 00:16:02,399
movement in the united states for

435
00:16:07,110 --> 00:16:05,600
and he resented uh leary

436
00:16:09,110 --> 00:16:07,120
for deep you know what i mean for under

437
00:16:10,710 --> 00:16:09,120
for undermining the seriousness of of

438
00:16:13,189 --> 00:16:10,720
the of the like he didn't want it to be

439
00:16:14,870 --> 00:16:13,199
a party drug which it kind of

440
00:16:16,470 --> 00:16:14,880
entered the the culture in that way and

441
00:16:18,470 --> 00:16:16,480
then it got banned and then

442
00:16:20,389 --> 00:16:18,480
research on it just completely stopped

443
00:16:21,990 --> 00:16:20,399
and so anyway that's

444
00:16:24,069 --> 00:16:22,000
it's terrific because i'll tell you

445
00:16:25,749 --> 00:16:24,079
there's one other aspect of this that i

446
00:16:28,790 --> 00:16:25,759
learned from you and i thought it was

447
00:16:31,189 --> 00:16:28,800
really just a great insight what you

448
00:16:34,790 --> 00:16:31,199
point out is it opened up all these

449
00:16:37,749 --> 00:16:34,800
vistas in terms of even thinking about

450
00:16:40,790 --> 00:16:37,759
all the stuff that we now consider

451
00:16:43,590 --> 00:16:40,800
relevant sure yeah i mean yeah and

452
00:16:44,790 --> 00:16:43,600
i as far you know as reading the history

453
00:16:47,509 --> 00:16:44,800
of this

454
00:16:49,030 --> 00:16:47,519
i think prior to lsd there people didn't

455
00:16:50,949 --> 00:16:49,040
really

456
00:16:52,629 --> 00:16:50,959
think that that what's going on

457
00:16:54,629 --> 00:16:52,639
chemically in your brain had anything to

458
00:16:55,670 --> 00:16:54,639
do with how you feel or how your

459
00:16:57,910 --> 00:16:55,680
behavior

460
00:17:00,389 --> 00:16:57,920
and then lsd was really like

461
00:17:03,269 --> 00:17:00,399
oh okay we we just introduced this

462
00:17:05,590 --> 00:17:03,279
molecule into your synapses and like all

463
00:17:08,309 --> 00:17:05,600
this crazy stuff happens maybe so

464
00:17:11,829 --> 00:17:08,319
then you had you know then in prozac and

465
00:17:14,069 --> 00:17:11,839
ritalin and and that and and i think lsd

466
00:17:16,390 --> 00:17:14,079
was really kind of the entry way into

467
00:17:17,429 --> 00:17:16,400
more serious i mean people had known

468
00:17:18,949 --> 00:17:17,439
about steam you know of course

469
00:17:21,029 --> 00:17:18,959
stimulants and

470
00:17:22,069 --> 00:17:21,039
and things but there really wasn't a a

471
00:17:25,189 --> 00:17:22,079
good a

472
00:17:26,710 --> 00:17:25,199
very advanced understanding of

473
00:17:29,270 --> 00:17:26,720
exactly what these different kinds of

474
00:17:30,789 --> 00:17:29,280
molecules are doing at the you know at

475
00:17:32,630 --> 00:17:30,799
the neural level i mean we still don't

476
00:17:35,110 --> 00:17:32,640
we are i think our understanding is

477
00:17:37,830 --> 00:17:35,120
quite crude but like lsd was really kind

478
00:17:40,070 --> 00:17:37,840
of the gateway to like oh we can we can

479
00:17:41,990 --> 00:17:40,080
work on compounds that target

480
00:17:44,310 --> 00:17:42,000
specific brain

481
00:17:46,390 --> 00:17:44,320
you know neurotransmitters and change

482
00:17:49,110 --> 00:17:46,400
how people feel change how they behave

483
00:17:51,510 --> 00:17:49,120
and i think lsd was really

484
00:17:54,150 --> 00:17:51,520
and that's that's kind of a lost uh

485
00:17:56,549 --> 00:17:54,160
piece of medical history absolutely

486
00:17:58,470 --> 00:17:56,559
absolutely became such a crazy taboo in

487
00:17:59,350 --> 00:17:58,480
the united states you know and around

488
00:18:01,510 --> 00:17:59,360
the world

489
00:18:04,870 --> 00:18:01,520
and then what your book traces is like

490
00:18:07,350 --> 00:18:04,880
okay so that's one gateway and then ai

491
00:18:09,430 --> 00:18:07,360
and it's power to kind of do stuff that

492
00:18:11,190 --> 00:18:09,440
we think is pretty smart you know and

493
00:18:15,350 --> 00:18:11,200
play chess and

494
00:18:17,350 --> 00:18:15,360
go don't don't play online poker people

495
00:18:19,990 --> 00:18:17,360
you're playing against robots you're

496
00:18:22,789 --> 00:18:20,000
just gonna get wiped out but

497
00:18:25,430 --> 00:18:22,799
i kid but not really where you're going

498
00:18:28,230 --> 00:18:25,440
then is to say okay so in the way that

499
00:18:30,470 --> 00:18:28,240
these guys had their world blown about

500
00:18:32,470 --> 00:18:30,480
wow there's this chemical neuro

501
00:18:33,990 --> 00:18:32,480
interaction that i don't even

502
00:18:35,510 --> 00:18:34,000
freaking understand and i didn't

503
00:18:37,590 --> 00:18:35,520
understand consciousness to begin with

504
00:18:39,590 --> 00:18:37,600
but now i don't understand it even more

505
00:18:41,350 --> 00:18:39,600
then you come along or ai comes along

506
00:18:43,510 --> 00:18:41,360
and says yeah you really don't

507
00:18:45,669 --> 00:18:43,520
understand consciousness and then what

508
00:18:46,630 --> 00:18:45,679
you pose here which is such an important

509
00:18:47,830 --> 00:18:46,640
question

510
00:18:49,750 --> 00:18:47,840
is

511
00:18:52,950 --> 00:18:49,760
again i'll repeat it can we build a

512
00:18:56,950 --> 00:18:52,960
robot that trips on acid and in the book

513
00:18:59,510 --> 00:18:56,960
you say the turing acid test so talk

514
00:19:02,150 --> 00:18:59,520
about a little bit about alan turing

515
00:19:03,430 --> 00:19:02,160
because this really is still for a lot

516
00:19:04,870 --> 00:19:03,440
of people

517
00:19:06,390 --> 00:19:04,880
and and it's going to be a very central

518
00:19:08,710 --> 00:19:06,400
part of this dialogue we're going to

519
00:19:11,990 --> 00:19:08,720
have today you know

520
00:19:14,390 --> 00:19:12,000
what is the touring test and is it

521
00:19:16,070 --> 00:19:14,400
really reasonable for you to push the

522
00:19:19,350 --> 00:19:16,080
turing test

523
00:19:20,310 --> 00:19:19,360
to the uh lsd level

524
00:19:25,350 --> 00:19:20,320
yeah

525
00:19:27,270 --> 00:19:25,360
part of the the fun of writing a book

526
00:19:28,310 --> 00:19:27,280
like this is you can be very speculative

527
00:19:34,870 --> 00:19:28,320
and

528
00:19:35,750 --> 00:19:34,880
acknowledge it's a speculative argument

529
00:19:37,669 --> 00:19:35,760
but

530
00:19:40,870 --> 00:19:37,679
i was i mean what i was interested in

531
00:19:45,510 --> 00:19:42,789
so a there's a lack of discussion of

532
00:19:46,549 --> 00:19:45,520
consciousness in the agi world that's

533
00:19:48,630 --> 00:19:46,559
like that we're going to create these

534
00:19:50,950 --> 00:19:48,640
human level intelligences

535
00:19:53,669 --> 00:19:50,960
and people aren't really and and to me

536
00:19:55,190 --> 00:19:53,679
and you know coming from a bit more of a

537
00:19:56,390 --> 00:19:55,200
human cognitive science background

538
00:19:58,549 --> 00:19:56,400
philosophy of mine

539
00:19:59,750 --> 00:19:58,559
where consciousness is a central problem

540
00:20:00,870 --> 00:19:59,760
for a lot of

541
00:20:02,950 --> 00:20:00,880
thinkers

542
00:20:04,470 --> 00:20:02,960
and there's this and you know what is

543
00:20:06,549 --> 00:20:04,480
the relationship between intelligence

544
00:20:08,230 --> 00:20:06,559
and consciousness and so i was

545
00:20:10,390 --> 00:20:08,240
questioning like can you have a human

546
00:20:12,390 --> 00:20:10,400
level intelligence that's not conscious

547
00:20:15,190 --> 00:20:12,400
i was very i'm very i'm still very

548
00:20:17,590 --> 00:20:15,200
skeptical of that like i don't and and

549
00:20:20,310 --> 00:20:17,600
and so in even in neuroscience we don't

550
00:20:21,830 --> 00:20:20,320
know what the relationship is between

551
00:20:23,590 --> 00:20:21,840
intelligence whatever that is and

552
00:20:24,310 --> 00:20:23,600
consciousness whatever that is

553
00:20:25,029 --> 00:20:24,320
so

554
00:20:41,990 --> 00:20:25,039
i

555
00:20:44,950 --> 00:20:42,000
and and so

556
00:20:46,630 --> 00:20:44,960
the the thought about lsd was then well

557
00:20:48,149 --> 00:20:46,640
if it's if it's

558
00:20:49,590 --> 00:20:48,159
basically indistinguishable from a

559
00:20:51,110 --> 00:20:49,600
human-minded

560
00:20:52,950 --> 00:20:51,120
it must have it might they must have

561
00:20:55,270 --> 00:20:52,960
this other property of like you must be

562
00:20:56,070 --> 00:20:55,280
able to alter it through

563
00:20:58,070 --> 00:20:56,080
these

564
00:20:59,590 --> 00:20:58,080
the you know it was it's a leap and you

565
00:21:02,470 --> 00:20:59,600
know it's like

566
00:21:05,590 --> 00:21:02,480
how you would engineer a system

567
00:21:07,270 --> 00:21:05,600
that could be perturbed by lsd or like

568
00:21:09,990 --> 00:21:07,280
and and but this gets back to these

569
00:21:11,669 --> 00:21:10,000
debates in philosophy of mind about you

570
00:21:13,110 --> 00:21:11,679
know there's the functionalist

571
00:21:14,390 --> 00:21:13,120
thing where it's like

572
00:21:16,870 --> 00:21:14,400
the medium

573
00:21:18,070 --> 00:21:16,880
if it's biological neurons or silicon

574
00:21:20,310 --> 00:21:18,080
based

575
00:21:22,149 --> 00:21:20,320
artificial neurons doesn't matter

576
00:21:23,270 --> 00:21:22,159
it's that what's important is what the

577
00:21:25,510 --> 00:21:23,280
way that they're set up and the

578
00:21:27,830 --> 00:21:25,520
algorithms that run

579
00:21:28,870 --> 00:21:27,840
that that's what is conscious and then

580
00:21:32,070 --> 00:21:28,880
there's other thinkers who are like no

581
00:21:33,750 --> 00:21:32,080
no only biological systems

582
00:21:35,830 --> 00:21:33,760
can do this and that and the ai people

583
00:21:37,830 --> 00:21:35,840
are like no no biology is irrelevant and

584
00:21:39,990 --> 00:21:37,840
so i was i thought lsd was a very

585
00:21:42,310 --> 00:21:40,000
interesting like

586
00:21:44,149 --> 00:21:42,320
way to like probe like probe that

587
00:21:45,430 --> 00:21:44,159
assumption of biology is irrelevant it's

588
00:21:46,710 --> 00:21:45,440
like um

589
00:21:49,270 --> 00:21:46,720
can you have all the properties of a

590
00:21:51,029 --> 00:21:49,280
human mind without this other property

591
00:21:54,230 --> 00:21:51,039
of like you can you can

592
00:21:56,070 --> 00:21:54,240
you can give it lsd and and it'll it'll

593
00:21:58,310 --> 00:21:56,080
completely change the way your brain is

594
00:22:01,110 --> 00:21:58,320
operating for for a while or maybe or

595
00:22:03,669 --> 00:22:01,120
maybe for a longer time

596
00:22:06,789 --> 00:22:03,679
it's very exciting it's a very

597
00:22:08,630 --> 00:22:06,799
imaginative way of kind of framing the

598
00:22:11,590 --> 00:22:08,640
problem if i can go back i just want to

599
00:22:13,750 --> 00:22:11,600
make sure that we don't lose everybody

600
00:22:15,909 --> 00:22:13,760
you know the the turing test was

601
00:22:18,149 --> 00:22:15,919
basically

602
00:22:20,870 --> 00:22:18,159
you know as you were kind of alluding to

603
00:22:23,270 --> 00:22:20,880
there it's like if i can fool you into

604
00:22:25,430 --> 00:22:23,280
thinking i'm intelligent then i'm

605
00:22:27,110 --> 00:22:25,440
intelligent and and that that then

606
00:22:29,590 --> 00:22:27,120
becomes the standard

607
00:22:31,430 --> 00:22:29,600
throughout you know so if we're sitting

608
00:22:32,870 --> 00:22:31,440
across and we're doing a chat and you

609
00:22:35,590 --> 00:22:32,880
think i'm a human

610
00:22:38,070 --> 00:22:35,600
uh and i'm not then i've passed the

611
00:22:41,510 --> 00:22:38,080
turing test you know and then we keep

612
00:22:43,590 --> 00:22:41,520
extending that beyond and beyond and as

613
00:22:45,430 --> 00:22:43,600
you point out as you just pointed out

614
00:22:47,350 --> 00:22:45,440
the thought exercises though they're

615
00:22:50,149 --> 00:22:47,360
going a lot of different directions but

616
00:22:51,990 --> 00:22:50,159
where you took it with the acid thing or

617
00:22:53,430 --> 00:22:52,000
the lsd thing

618
00:22:55,270 --> 00:22:53,440
i think really

619
00:22:57,510 --> 00:22:55,280
gets to what i think has been the core

620
00:22:59,990 --> 00:22:57,520
question here a lot of times and i think

621
00:23:02,230 --> 00:23:00,000
is this question is skirted for the most

622
00:23:04,549 --> 00:23:02,240
part by the technology community and

623
00:23:06,950 --> 00:23:04,559
that is is it the turing test or is it

624
00:23:08,710 --> 00:23:06,960
the metaphysical test the question about

625
00:23:10,789 --> 00:23:08,720
consciousness is

626
00:23:13,430 --> 00:23:10,799
is it somehow

627
00:23:16,789 --> 00:23:13,440
fundamental so you know back when

628
00:23:19,350 --> 00:23:16,799
quantum physics happens if you will

629
00:23:21,029 --> 00:23:19,360
you got some of the greatest

630
00:23:23,750 --> 00:23:21,039
scientists physicists of the world the

631
00:23:25,430 --> 00:23:23,760
max plancks the schrodingers the niels

632
00:23:27,110 --> 00:23:25,440
bohr they're saying

633
00:23:29,590 --> 00:23:27,120
[\h__\h] it guys

634
00:23:32,390 --> 00:23:29,600
you got it all wrong consciousness is

635
00:23:35,350 --> 00:23:32,400
fundamental and matter what you guys

636
00:23:37,270 --> 00:23:35,360
like or so interested in you ai guys are

637
00:23:39,990 --> 00:23:37,280
so interested in

638
00:23:41,750 --> 00:23:40,000
is emer is some emerging is bad work is

639
00:23:44,789 --> 00:23:41,760
somehow

640
00:23:47,269 --> 00:23:44,799
coming out of consciousness and now i i

641
00:23:48,950 --> 00:23:47,279
have to add that this really needs to be

642
00:23:51,350 --> 00:23:48,960
something that we wrestle to the ground

643
00:23:53,669 --> 00:23:51,360
too because on this show i mean i got

644
00:23:55,990 --> 00:23:53,679
200 shows exploring that and i think the

645
00:23:57,990 --> 00:23:56,000
best way to explore that is through

646
00:23:59,510 --> 00:23:58,000
looking at

647
00:24:01,029 --> 00:23:59,520
some of the fundamental

648
00:24:02,470 --> 00:24:01,039
questions assumptions we've made about

649
00:24:04,789 --> 00:24:02,480
consciousness start with does

650
00:24:07,269 --> 00:24:04,799
consciousness survive death so go look

651
00:24:08,789 --> 00:24:07,279
at the near-death experience science go

652
00:24:11,430 --> 00:24:08,799
look at university of virginia and the

653
00:24:14,630 --> 00:24:11,440
reincarnation science go look at all

654
00:24:15,909 --> 00:24:14,640
that and you come back and go okay yeah

655
00:24:18,149 --> 00:24:15,919
kind of

656
00:24:20,870 --> 00:24:18,159
pretty well case closed consciousness

657
00:24:22,310 --> 00:24:20,880
seems to survive bodily death and that

658
00:24:25,430 --> 00:24:22,320
would definitely throw us in the

659
00:24:27,909 --> 00:24:25,440
metaphysical camp so

660
00:24:28,950 --> 00:24:27,919
how do we even hold on to

661
00:24:31,430 --> 00:24:28,960
the

662
00:24:33,350 --> 00:24:31,440
materialist science

663
00:24:35,990 --> 00:24:33,360
consciousness is an illusion i mean is

664
00:24:38,549 --> 00:24:36,000
that really viable from a philosophical

665
00:24:40,789 --> 00:24:38,559
standpoint not just philosophical but

666
00:24:43,269 --> 00:24:40,799
given the evidence we have yeah that's i

667
00:24:47,190 --> 00:24:43,279
mean that's a interesting and i i

668
00:24:48,950 --> 00:24:47,200
haven't thought too much about that

669
00:24:50,710 --> 00:24:48,960
you know in terms of those questions

670
00:24:53,430 --> 00:24:50,720
it's definitely

671
00:24:56,070 --> 00:24:53,440
like in the book i was i was kind of

672
00:24:58,549 --> 00:24:56,080
trying to argue against the

673
00:25:00,789 --> 00:24:58,559
the inherent dualist

674
00:25:02,630 --> 00:25:00,799
i think tone in

675
00:25:04,149 --> 00:25:02,640
a lot of the ai

676
00:25:05,990 --> 00:25:04,159
thing where

677
00:25:08,310 --> 00:25:06,000
like consciousness can be

678
00:25:09,430 --> 00:25:08,320
uh embodied in any

679
00:25:11,830 --> 00:25:09,440
medium

680
00:25:13,350 --> 00:25:11,840
or you know if it's silicon and i don't

681
00:25:15,510 --> 00:25:13,360
and yeah i

682
00:25:16,950 --> 00:25:15,520
that's a um

683
00:25:18,710 --> 00:25:16,960
i don't know what i think about you know

684
00:25:20,710 --> 00:25:18,720
consciousness surviving

685
00:25:22,310 --> 00:25:20,720
death and like i'm i'm not you know what

686
00:25:23,350 --> 00:25:22,320
i mean like i'm not i don't have a

687
00:25:24,630 --> 00:25:23,360
strong

688
00:25:26,390 --> 00:25:24,640
let me ask you this question though

689
00:25:28,390 --> 00:25:26,400
about that i'm going to persist on that

690
00:25:30,870 --> 00:25:28,400
a little bit further yeah

691
00:25:32,630 --> 00:25:30,880
isn't that the question i mean if if we

692
00:25:35,269 --> 00:25:32,640
were going to not but not the question

693
00:25:37,990 --> 00:25:35,279
not like oh my god i have to know if i

694
00:25:39,350 --> 00:25:38,000
but from the standpoint of reducing it

695
00:25:40,950 --> 00:25:39,360
down to

696
00:25:43,110 --> 00:25:40,960
the kind of most

697
00:25:44,230 --> 00:25:43,120
parsimonious way to

698
00:25:45,510 --> 00:25:44,240
determine

699
00:25:47,269 --> 00:25:45,520
one or another i mean i think that's

700
00:25:49,990 --> 00:25:47,279
pretty that's how i got there i didn't

701
00:25:51,190 --> 00:25:50,000
start there with that question i started

702
00:25:52,430 --> 00:25:51,200
with

703
00:25:54,710 --> 00:25:52,440
psi and

704
00:25:57,110 --> 00:25:54,720
parapsychology and how do those guys at

705
00:25:59,350 --> 00:25:57,120
princeton get that random number

706
00:26:01,510 --> 00:25:59,360
generator to swing a little bit more 50

707
00:26:03,029 --> 00:26:01,520
50 that way and then i got to some point

708
00:26:04,789 --> 00:26:03,039
i go well we'll screw all that i mean

709
00:26:06,310 --> 00:26:04,799
here's the more

710
00:26:07,669 --> 00:26:06,320
here's the simplest question does

711
00:26:09,990 --> 00:26:07,679
consciousness survive death if

712
00:26:12,549 --> 00:26:10,000
consciousness survives this bodily

713
00:26:13,909 --> 00:26:12,559
biological thing well then you know it

714
00:26:15,750 --> 00:26:13,919
kind of answers that question so

715
00:26:16,630 --> 00:26:15,760
philosophically doesn't that question

716
00:26:18,789 --> 00:26:16,640
kind of

717
00:26:20,789 --> 00:26:18,799
cut to the chase

718
00:26:22,310 --> 00:26:20,799
yeah i mean it's true i think it's a

719
00:26:23,029 --> 00:26:22,320
great point because

720
00:26:31,990 --> 00:26:23,039
you

721
00:26:34,310 --> 00:26:32,000
does transcend

722
00:26:37,350 --> 00:26:34,320
the bio like your biological

723
00:26:38,950 --> 00:26:37,360
brain if if if it can be instantiated in

724
00:26:40,950 --> 00:26:38,960
a different

725
00:26:42,710 --> 00:26:40,960
yeah and so it's a very good point and

726
00:26:44,630 --> 00:26:42,720
it's a it's a very

727
00:26:47,909 --> 00:26:44,640
it's an interest you know and i i agree

728
00:26:49,590 --> 00:26:47,919
i mean there's you know camus was like

729
00:26:52,789 --> 00:26:49,600
the only serious philosophical question

730
00:26:54,789 --> 00:26:52,799
is suicide exactly right if you if you

731
00:26:56,230 --> 00:26:54,799
think your life is worth living that's

732
00:26:58,070 --> 00:26:56,240
everything else is kind of a game he

733
00:26:58,870 --> 00:26:58,080
thought you know

734
00:27:00,710 --> 00:26:58,880
so

735
00:27:02,470 --> 00:27:00,720
i i don't um

736
00:27:04,830 --> 00:27:02,480
i have to say like philosophically i

737
00:27:07,750 --> 00:27:04,840
tend you know i do tend toward

738
00:27:09,029 --> 00:27:07,760
more this tradition of i guess realism

739
00:27:11,110 --> 00:27:09,039
or like

740
00:27:14,789 --> 00:27:11,120
science you know what i mean the the the

741
00:27:17,190 --> 00:27:14,799
objects of scientific theories are

742
00:27:19,029 --> 00:27:17,200
and you know i i don't i'm not you know

743
00:27:20,789 --> 00:27:19,039
but i would i would definitely lean

744
00:27:22,789 --> 00:27:20,799
toward this like

745
00:27:23,669 --> 00:27:22,799
there's there's some mind independent

746
00:27:25,110 --> 00:27:23,679
world

747
00:27:27,190 --> 00:27:25,120
and science

748
00:27:27,990 --> 00:27:27,200
tells us something about it

749
00:27:30,310 --> 00:27:28,000
that

750
00:27:31,590 --> 00:27:30,320
in the vagus weakest

751
00:27:33,590 --> 00:27:31,600
form of that

752
00:27:35,669 --> 00:27:33,600
argument but i but i completely

753
00:27:37,510 --> 00:27:35,679
acknowledge that that's

754
00:27:39,430 --> 00:27:37,520
that's a metaphysics in itself you know

755
00:27:41,669 --> 00:27:39,440
where you say right science is about

756
00:27:44,549 --> 00:27:41,679
trying to understand

757
00:27:45,830 --> 00:27:44,559
the the some and and i agree like you

758
00:27:48,710 --> 00:27:45,840
were talking about the the quantum

759
00:27:50,549 --> 00:27:48,720
thinkers uh and and quantum physics

760
00:27:51,909 --> 00:27:50,559
where that it does throw all that into

761
00:27:53,110 --> 00:27:51,919
question

762
00:27:54,389 --> 00:27:53,120
you know where

763
00:27:57,510 --> 00:27:54,399
you can't really separate what you're

764
00:27:58,710 --> 00:27:57,520
observing from the act of observing

765
00:28:00,070 --> 00:27:58,720
like there's no

766
00:28:02,630 --> 00:28:00,080
so

767
00:28:04,710 --> 00:28:02,640
but i i gotta return to because i think

768
00:28:06,230 --> 00:28:04,720
you've added a really really

769
00:28:08,389 --> 00:28:06,240
important like you said thought

770
00:28:10,789 --> 00:28:08,399
experiment exercise

771
00:28:13,430 --> 00:28:10,799
with the acid thing and i want to return

772
00:28:15,190 --> 00:28:13,440
to that what is your final conclusion on

773
00:28:17,350 --> 00:28:15,200
that in terms of

774
00:28:19,350 --> 00:28:17,360
playing that game

775
00:28:21,830 --> 00:28:19,360
is there some

776
00:28:23,669 --> 00:28:21,840
future where

777
00:28:26,549 --> 00:28:23,679
some artificial intelligence could it

778
00:28:28,470 --> 00:28:26,559
pass the acid turing test

779
00:28:30,070 --> 00:28:28,480
yeah and i think this problem of people

780
00:28:32,230 --> 00:28:30,080
working there's people you know that are

781
00:28:34,230 --> 00:28:32,240
interested in agi and

782
00:28:36,870 --> 00:28:34,240
who are working on it you know and are

783
00:28:38,870 --> 00:28:36,880
tr are are really trying to create this

784
00:28:41,190 --> 00:28:38,880
a human level

785
00:28:42,830 --> 00:28:41,200
you know system that that has human

786
00:28:45,990 --> 00:28:42,840
level intelligence

787
00:28:47,590 --> 00:28:46,000
and i you know

788
00:28:49,750 --> 00:28:47,600
and again this this question of would

789
00:28:53,190 --> 00:28:49,760
that think would that thing whatever it

790
00:28:53,990 --> 00:28:53,200
is have subjective experience

791
00:28:56,549 --> 00:28:54,000
or

792
00:28:58,310 --> 00:28:56,559
what con some kind of and i you know i

793
00:29:01,029 --> 00:28:58,320
definitely think a way to probe that

794
00:29:04,230 --> 00:29:01,039
would be to try to perturb it

795
00:29:07,669 --> 00:29:04,240
the way the way lsd perturbs our

796
00:29:09,830 --> 00:29:07,679
subjective experience like it completely

797
00:29:12,149 --> 00:29:09,840
you know and but there's there's there's

798
00:29:14,870 --> 00:29:12,159
a very difficult way and this is what's

799
00:29:16,710 --> 00:29:14,880
very interesting to me is

800
00:29:18,710 --> 00:29:16,720
it's really hard to objectively verify

801
00:29:21,269 --> 00:29:18,720
that like you're tripping on acid

802
00:29:23,830 --> 00:29:21,279
you you they they do studies now where

803
00:29:25,669 --> 00:29:23,840
they give people lsd or psilocybin put

804
00:29:27,350 --> 00:29:25,679
them in the brain scanner

805
00:29:28,710 --> 00:29:27,360
in the fmri machine

806
00:29:30,310 --> 00:29:28,720
and you lay there and you were you

807
00:29:31,830 --> 00:29:30,320
report what you're like oh i'm seeing

808
00:29:34,310 --> 00:29:31,840
colors i feel

809
00:29:35,990 --> 00:29:34,320
disembodied my ego is dissolving

810
00:29:38,230 --> 00:29:36,000
and they can track you know then you can

811
00:29:41,430 --> 00:29:38,240
you can definitely track like

812
00:29:43,269 --> 00:29:41,440
okay your your anterior cingulate is

813
00:29:44,789 --> 00:29:43,279
shutting down your prefrontal cortex is

814
00:29:46,549 --> 00:29:44,799
shutting down your

815
00:29:48,230 --> 00:29:46,559
you know what i mean like you can and

816
00:29:50,630 --> 00:29:48,240
then they can compare like a person

817
00:29:52,710 --> 00:29:50,640
who's not on who's sober

818
00:29:54,549 --> 00:29:52,720
and and you can get an idea of what's

819
00:29:56,389 --> 00:29:54,559
going on in the brain but how this

820
00:29:58,549 --> 00:29:56,399
relates to

821
00:30:00,789 --> 00:29:58,559
the the subjective experiences is still

822
00:30:02,389 --> 00:30:00,799
very you know you can rely like they do

823
00:30:03,990 --> 00:30:02,399
these studies where they try to reliably

824
00:30:05,350 --> 00:30:04,000
correlate like

825
00:30:06,870 --> 00:30:05,360
this bridge this is happening in this

826
00:30:09,510 --> 00:30:06,880
bridge region and this is what the

827
00:30:11,110 --> 00:30:09,520
subject reports are reporting but

828
00:30:13,190 --> 00:30:11,120
and so in a computer system again you'd

829
00:30:14,870 --> 00:30:13,200
have the same problem of

830
00:30:16,789 --> 00:30:14,880
the computer system might be claiming it

831
00:30:18,230 --> 00:30:16,799
might be saying hey i'm conscious

832
00:30:20,549 --> 00:30:18,240
don't hurt me

833
00:30:22,070 --> 00:30:20,559
how would do do you believe what i mean

834
00:30:23,430 --> 00:30:22,080
like here's where i thought you were

835
00:30:25,190 --> 00:30:23,440
going with that when you started talking

836
00:30:26,230 --> 00:30:25,200
about the imaging stuff because this is

837
00:30:27,510 --> 00:30:26,240
very

838
00:30:29,190 --> 00:30:27,520
kind of uh

839
00:30:31,110 --> 00:30:29,200
an interesting topic in the

840
00:30:33,830 --> 00:30:31,120
consciousness field right is because

841
00:30:36,070 --> 00:30:33,840
they do that imaging stuff that fmri

842
00:30:37,750 --> 00:30:36,080
stuff and nut i think is the guy's name

843
00:30:39,510 --> 00:30:37,760
in england who really kind of started it

844
00:30:41,990 --> 00:30:39,520
yeah yeah david nut is that it yeah

845
00:30:43,029 --> 00:30:42,000
david nutt well

846
00:30:46,230 --> 00:30:43,039
what they found was very

847
00:30:48,710 --> 00:30:46,240
counterintuitive i mean the the uh uh

848
00:30:50,389 --> 00:30:48,720
subjective experience of tripping on

849
00:30:53,190 --> 00:30:50,399
psilocybin is you know

850
00:30:55,430 --> 00:30:53,200
boom fireworks are going off so the

851
00:30:57,669 --> 00:30:55,440
expectation was we'd see the brain lit

852
00:31:00,630 --> 00:30:57,679
up like a christmas tree and what they

853
00:31:03,269 --> 00:31:00,640
find is the opposite they find a reduced

854
00:31:05,590 --> 00:31:03,279
activity in all these areas and it

855
00:31:07,269 --> 00:31:05,600
supports the notion which i i i don't

856
00:31:09,669 --> 00:31:07,279
know how this fits into your model is

857
00:31:11,909 --> 00:31:09,679
that you know this is kind of this

858
00:31:13,509 --> 00:31:11,919
transceiver you know the brain is a

859
00:31:15,029 --> 00:31:13,519
transceiver of consciousness

860
00:31:18,149 --> 00:31:15,039
consciousness is

861
00:31:20,470 --> 00:31:18,159
vast immense beyond we can describe and

862
00:31:22,149 --> 00:31:20,480
we're somehow filtering it through this

863
00:31:25,350 --> 00:31:22,159
so when you talk about

864
00:31:28,549 --> 00:31:25,360
perturbing the system you know the ai

865
00:31:30,230 --> 00:31:28,559
system that is now instantiated in this

866
00:31:32,549 --> 00:31:30,240
little bit of silicone

867
00:31:33,350 --> 00:31:32,559
we still come back to the same question

868
00:31:38,070 --> 00:31:33,360
is

869
00:31:40,710 --> 00:31:38,080
and flowing it through all these things

870
00:31:42,710 --> 00:31:40,720
what difference does it make right so

871
00:31:45,350 --> 00:31:42,720
yeah i see what you mean like if if if

872
00:31:47,110 --> 00:31:45,360
consciousness is somehow

873
00:31:48,630 --> 00:31:47,120
a force

874
00:31:50,950 --> 00:31:48,640
in you know like a fundamental force or

875
00:31:54,230 --> 00:31:50,960
something that we are

876
00:31:56,950 --> 00:31:54,240
you know connecting to some you know via

877
00:32:00,549 --> 00:31:56,960
whatever or like and then the psilocybin

878
00:32:02,230 --> 00:32:00,559
is like allowing that more

879
00:32:04,549 --> 00:32:02,240
you mean to sort of explain the counter

880
00:32:05,990 --> 00:32:04,559
the counter-intuitive

881
00:32:07,990 --> 00:32:06,000
thing about the

882
00:32:09,830 --> 00:32:08,000
the brain studies and like i mean i do i

883
00:32:11,509 --> 00:32:09,840
definitely think that there's that it's

884
00:32:12,870 --> 00:32:11,519
a little more nuanced because i think

885
00:32:19,509 --> 00:32:12,880
there's

886
00:32:22,070 --> 00:32:19,519
the brain that

887
00:32:23,269 --> 00:32:22,080
reduce their activity in in the

888
00:32:25,110 --> 00:32:23,279
according to these measures but there

889
00:32:26,630 --> 00:32:25,120
are others that actually

890
00:32:28,470 --> 00:32:26,640
that are increasing and their and their

891
00:32:29,990 --> 00:32:28,480
connections are

892
00:32:32,310 --> 00:32:30,000
increasing and these and these are more

893
00:32:34,070 --> 00:32:32,320
the perceptual sensory i mean which

894
00:32:36,950 --> 00:32:34,080
again it doesn't rule out you know what

895
00:32:39,909 --> 00:32:36,960
i mean that that you're picking up stuff

896
00:32:43,110 --> 00:32:39,919
um and again this this is a very old

897
00:32:44,389 --> 00:32:43,120
philosophical debate about whether

898
00:32:47,509 --> 00:32:44,399
i mean i think within mainstream

899
00:32:49,909 --> 00:32:47,519
neuroscience it's it's generally

900
00:32:52,950 --> 00:32:49,919
accepted or assumed that the

901
00:32:55,269 --> 00:32:52,960
the you know the brain is

902
00:32:57,190 --> 00:32:55,279
its identity it generates consciousness

903
00:32:58,389 --> 00:32:57,200
or you know but this is the people

904
00:32:59,909 --> 00:32:58,399
people

905
00:33:01,830 --> 00:32:59,919
you know they're like what is it does it

906
00:33:04,149 --> 00:33:01,840
ooze or what you know

907
00:33:06,389 --> 00:33:04,159
and this is this is a hard a hard debate

908
00:33:07,990 --> 00:33:06,399
about like what the

909
00:33:10,630 --> 00:33:08,000
but there there definitely are floss

910
00:33:12,549 --> 00:33:10,640
there's there are you know philosophers

911
00:33:14,070 --> 00:33:12,559
who talk about like the extended mind

912
00:33:15,509 --> 00:33:14,080
and like

913
00:33:17,190 --> 00:33:15,519
i don't really think it's much of a

914
00:33:19,269 --> 00:33:17,200
debate if you really look at the

915
00:33:22,070 --> 00:33:19,279
frontier science we're going to hold on

916
00:33:24,310 --> 00:33:22,080
to this materialism because

917
00:33:26,310 --> 00:33:24,320
as richard feynman famously said you

918
00:33:28,389 --> 00:33:26,320
know shut up and calculate and he didn't

919
00:33:30,389 --> 00:33:28,399
really say it but why not attribute to

920
00:33:31,110 --> 00:33:30,399
him it's it fits him

921
00:33:33,430 --> 00:33:31,120
and

922
00:33:34,710 --> 00:33:33,440
you know we've built this incredible

923
00:33:36,950 --> 00:33:34,720
incredible

924
00:33:39,269 --> 00:33:36,960
advanced scientifically based culture

925
00:33:41,350 --> 00:33:39,279
that we love and we should love because

926
00:33:43,269 --> 00:33:41,360
it brings us a lot of things and that

927
00:33:44,950 --> 00:33:43,279
you know shut up and calculate models so

928
00:33:46,070 --> 00:33:44,960
we don't want to throw that

929
00:33:48,149 --> 00:33:46,080
for practical reasons we don't want to

930
00:33:49,669 --> 00:33:48,159
throw that away but from if we're going

931
00:33:51,669 --> 00:33:49,679
to be honest about the science like i

932
00:33:54,470 --> 00:33:51,679
say i mean near-death experience science

933
00:33:55,669 --> 00:33:54,480
let alone parapsychology blows it away

934
00:33:58,310 --> 00:33:55,679
but then if you want to get into the

935
00:34:00,470 --> 00:33:58,320
more human reincarnation research you

936
00:34:02,389 --> 00:34:00,480
know hey after death communication i

937
00:34:04,310 --> 00:34:02,399
just you know i interviewed this one dr

938
00:34:06,950 --> 00:34:04,320
julie bauschel she's still around it

939
00:34:08,950 --> 00:34:06,960
windbridge institute phd in pharmacology

940
00:34:10,629 --> 00:34:08,960
she knows how to do controlled studies

941
00:34:14,069 --> 00:34:10,639
you do controlled studies on whether

942
00:34:14,950 --> 00:34:14,079
mediums can reliably deliver information

943
00:34:17,349 --> 00:34:14,960
to

944
00:34:19,109 --> 00:34:17,359
people who are grieving and the data

945
00:34:20,950 --> 00:34:19,119
just comes through again and again they

946
00:34:22,230 --> 00:34:20,960
can we don't understand the mechanism we

947
00:34:24,230 --> 00:34:22,240
don't understand what it means to be

948
00:34:27,349 --> 00:34:24,240
deceased and have consciousness that's

949
00:34:28,869 --> 00:34:27,359
deceased but we do it does but then the

950
00:34:31,510 --> 00:34:28,879
follow-on to her study that i find

951
00:34:34,869 --> 00:34:31,520
incredibly incredibly relevant is that

952
00:34:36,869 --> 00:34:34,879
hey and if you lost a dog

953
00:34:39,030 --> 00:34:36,879
you could communicate with that dog too

954
00:34:41,190 --> 00:34:39,040
in a way that's again in every way that

955
00:34:44,310 --> 00:34:41,200
we can measure it straight up you know

956
00:34:45,990 --> 00:34:44,320
doing science and and science says if we

957
00:34:48,550 --> 00:34:46,000
can observe it we can measure it there's

958
00:34:50,470 --> 00:34:48,560
no taboo to say well you can't measure

959
00:34:52,230 --> 00:34:50,480
after death communication and science

960
00:34:53,909 --> 00:34:52,240
sure a [\h__\h] can just set up the

961
00:34:55,750 --> 00:34:53,919
experiment set up the controls what are

962
00:34:58,470 --> 00:34:55,760
you observing measure it control it

963
00:35:02,470 --> 00:34:58,480
control it control it and at the end so

964
00:35:04,230 --> 00:35:02,480
we don't really have an idea of and it

965
00:35:05,109 --> 00:35:04,240
inter interfaces with your world too

966
00:35:07,589 --> 00:35:05,119
it's like

967
00:35:09,589 --> 00:35:07,599
can silicone be conscious well let's

968
00:35:11,589 --> 00:35:09,599
start with can your cat be conscious can

969
00:35:13,910 --> 00:35:11,599
your dog be conscious most people who've

970
00:35:16,230 --> 00:35:13,920
ever had an animal say of course i know

971
00:35:18,470 --> 00:35:16,240
it is but there's a whole bunch of

972
00:35:20,710 --> 00:35:18,480
questions that get tied in here what do

973
00:35:22,390 --> 00:35:20,720
you think about shut up and calculate

974
00:35:24,470 --> 00:35:22,400
i think if you look if in fact there was

975
00:35:26,150 --> 00:35:24,480
an interesting survey among physicists a

976
00:35:28,069 --> 00:35:26,160
few years ago

977
00:35:29,910 --> 00:35:28,079
who i think they tried to get at this

978
00:35:31,589 --> 00:35:29,920
question and ask them you know like what

979
00:35:33,109 --> 00:35:31,599
about indeterminacy what about

980
00:35:35,030 --> 00:35:33,119
randomness

981
00:35:36,390 --> 00:35:35,040
uh what about you know

982
00:35:37,430 --> 00:35:36,400
entanglement

983
00:35:39,990 --> 00:35:37,440
and and all these different

984
00:35:42,710 --> 00:35:40,000
interpretations of quantum theory

985
00:35:44,470 --> 00:35:42,720
and i think a large you know a large

986
00:35:45,670 --> 00:35:44,480
percentage of physicists don't

987
00:35:47,670 --> 00:35:45,680
you know

988
00:35:48,710 --> 00:35:47,680
are reluctant to commit

989
00:35:50,069 --> 00:35:48,720
to

990
00:35:52,390 --> 00:35:50,079
an interpretation you know because it

991
00:35:54,790 --> 00:35:52,400
does it's like

992
00:35:56,790 --> 00:35:54,800
you know the the the the shut up

993
00:35:58,630 --> 00:35:56,800
most of them are just in the they do

994
00:35:59,990 --> 00:35:58,640
just shut up and calculate because

995
00:36:01,349 --> 00:36:00,000
that's how you publish papers and get

996
00:36:03,109 --> 00:36:01,359
tenure and

997
00:36:04,870 --> 00:36:03,119
get paid you know you get a paycheck

998
00:36:06,710 --> 00:36:04,880
yeah yeah you get a paycheck and like

999
00:36:08,950 --> 00:36:06,720
that's it and we and like you said we

1000
00:36:10,470 --> 00:36:08,960
were making these advances

1001
00:36:13,109 --> 00:36:10,480
you know maybe at this point

1002
00:36:15,030 --> 00:36:13,119
incrementally and and like there's some

1003
00:36:17,349 --> 00:36:15,040
there's a great book by sabine

1004
00:36:18,310 --> 00:36:17,359
hosenfelder about uh it's called lost in

1005
00:36:20,310 --> 00:36:18,320
math

1006
00:36:22,310 --> 00:36:20,320
about how physics is so obsessed with

1007
00:36:23,990 --> 00:36:22,320
beautiful equations that empirically

1008
00:36:25,670 --> 00:36:24,000
we've like made no progress since the

1009
00:36:26,390 --> 00:36:25,680
70s

1010
00:36:27,589 --> 00:36:26,400
and

1011
00:36:28,950 --> 00:36:27,599
because they're all obsessed with super

1012
00:36:31,829 --> 00:36:28,960
symmetry and like they but they can't

1013
00:36:33,829 --> 00:36:31,839
find it but they keep smashing particles

1014
00:36:35,750 --> 00:36:33,839
and they're like this has to be true you

1015
00:36:37,510 --> 00:36:35,760
know what i mean the these because the

1016
00:36:40,390 --> 00:36:37,520
equations are so beautiful

1017
00:36:43,270 --> 00:36:40,400
uh but but they just the the empirical

1018
00:36:45,990 --> 00:36:43,280
support for a lot of the the stuff is

1019
00:36:48,230 --> 00:36:46,000
not there what do you think about that

1020
00:36:50,870 --> 00:36:48,240
because like i've had some awesome

1021
00:36:53,109 --> 00:36:50,880
interviews with uh physicist donald

1022
00:36:54,790 --> 00:36:53,119
hoffman is kind of one of my favorites

1023
00:36:56,470 --> 00:36:54,800
you know kind of saying you know the

1024
00:36:58,310 --> 00:36:56,480
deal you know and there's kind of no

1025
00:36:59,910 --> 00:36:58,320
reality and here's my mathematical model

1026
00:37:00,870 --> 00:36:59,920
to prove it kind of thing which is kind

1027
00:37:03,030 --> 00:37:00,880
of an

1028
00:37:06,069 --> 00:37:03,040
oxymoron in a way but

1029
00:37:07,109 --> 00:37:06,079
your field i think to anyone who really

1030
00:37:09,430 --> 00:37:07,119
is

1031
00:37:11,670 --> 00:37:09,440
willing to go there

1032
00:37:14,390 --> 00:37:11,680
is the most in-your-face

1033
00:37:16,790 --> 00:37:14,400
counter-argument to a lot of that

1034
00:37:18,310 --> 00:37:16,800
uh myth of progress kind of stuff which

1035
00:37:19,589 --> 00:37:18,320
i hear you know we're not really

1036
00:37:23,030 --> 00:37:19,599
progressing you know

1037
00:37:24,870 --> 00:37:23,040
it's like man alphago

1038
00:37:26,950 --> 00:37:24,880
tell people right right right tell

1039
00:37:28,950 --> 00:37:26,960
people of the broad sketch the alpha

1040
00:37:31,030 --> 00:37:28,960
ghost story

1041
00:37:33,030 --> 00:37:31,040
google bought deepmind

1042
00:37:34,630 --> 00:37:33,040
a few years ago

1043
00:37:35,430 --> 00:37:34,640
for a lot of money

1044
00:37:37,910 --> 00:37:35,440
and

1045
00:37:39,430 --> 00:37:37,920
they use um

1046
00:37:41,109 --> 00:37:39,440
right and and you know like you

1047
00:37:42,710 --> 00:37:41,119
mentioned deep blue and that you know

1048
00:37:44,710 --> 00:37:42,720
initially

1049
00:37:46,950 --> 00:37:44,720
people thought chess would be you know

1050
00:37:48,230 --> 00:37:46,960
kind of an insurmountable obstacle for

1051
00:37:50,950 --> 00:37:48,240
for an ai

1052
00:37:52,150 --> 00:37:50,960
and that proved not to be true and then

1053
00:37:54,069 --> 00:37:52,160
i mean there is this interesting

1054
00:37:56,310 --> 00:37:54,079
dichotomy i think where you know there's

1055
00:37:57,430 --> 00:37:56,320
the famous um

1056
00:37:59,349 --> 00:37:57,440
um

1057
00:38:01,109 --> 00:37:59,359
story about marvin minsky who was one

1058
00:38:02,550 --> 00:38:01,119
you know one of these early ai people

1059
00:38:04,550 --> 00:38:02,560
from the 60s and

1060
00:38:06,710 --> 00:38:04,560
he he like assigned

1061
00:38:07,589 --> 00:38:06,720
he assigned the problem of computer

1062
00:38:09,750 --> 00:38:07,599
vision

1063
00:38:11,190 --> 00:38:09,760
to like a summer intern

1064
00:38:12,790 --> 00:38:11,200
and and they you know back in they're

1065
00:38:14,390 --> 00:38:12,800
like oh computer vision we're going to

1066
00:38:16,950 --> 00:38:14,400
solve that in the summer with an intern

1067
00:38:19,990 --> 00:38:16,960
you know and here we are 56 years later

1068
00:38:22,230 --> 00:38:20,000
it's like well we're no you know we're

1069
00:38:23,670 --> 00:38:22,240
we're closer but like it's it's

1070
00:38:26,150 --> 00:38:23,680
and so the problems that we thought were

1071
00:38:28,470 --> 00:38:26,160
going to be really hard like chess

1072
00:38:30,950 --> 00:38:28,480
and and go turned out to be

1073
00:38:33,030 --> 00:38:30,960
easier than the like than getting a

1074
00:38:34,550 --> 00:38:33,040
robot to like open a car door like we

1075
00:38:36,710 --> 00:38:34,560
there's i don't know if you follow these

1076
00:38:38,230 --> 00:38:36,720
darpa challenges or like

1077
00:38:39,430 --> 00:38:38,240
you know i mean you have these boston

1078
00:38:41,589 --> 00:38:39,440
dynamics

1079
00:38:43,270 --> 00:38:41,599
things with the dancing robots but like

1080
00:38:45,190 --> 00:38:43,280
you still can't you still there's no

1081
00:38:46,790 --> 00:38:45,200
we're very far away from having a robot

1082
00:38:48,470 --> 00:38:46,800
that you could say like oh go

1083
00:38:49,510 --> 00:38:48,480
go to the fridge and get me a

1084
00:38:51,670 --> 00:38:49,520
a beer

1085
00:38:52,470 --> 00:38:51,680
there's there's no there's no robot that

1086
00:38:54,069 --> 00:38:52,480
could

1087
00:38:55,349 --> 00:38:54,079
do that without destroy you know what i

1088
00:38:57,270 --> 00:38:55,359
mean like it would it would have to be

1089
00:38:58,710 --> 00:38:57,280
like it's very controlled

1090
00:39:00,230 --> 00:38:58,720
circum so like now you know just the

1091
00:39:02,390 --> 00:39:00,240
stuff humans take for granted in terms

1092
00:39:05,270 --> 00:39:02,400
of motion and moving around are like

1093
00:39:07,349 --> 00:39:05,280
insanely difficult from a robotics and

1094
00:39:09,109 --> 00:39:07,359
and like a phys but then

1095
00:39:12,150 --> 00:39:09,119
anyway alphago was

1096
00:39:14,950 --> 00:39:12,160
go is this very old game that's very

1097
00:39:15,750 --> 00:39:14,960
complicated it has a lot of dimensions

1098
00:39:19,750 --> 00:39:15,760
and

1099
00:39:21,270 --> 00:39:19,760
like oh okay chess

1100
00:39:22,870 --> 00:39:21,280
it's relatively simple actually if you

1101
00:39:24,310 --> 00:39:22,880
you can just it's this combinatorial

1102
00:39:25,109 --> 00:39:24,320
problem of all the rules and like if you

1103
00:39:27,190 --> 00:39:25,119
have this

1104
00:39:28,710 --> 00:39:27,200
massive supercomputer of course it can

1105
00:39:31,589 --> 00:39:28,720
churn through all the possible moves in

1106
00:39:33,270 --> 00:39:31,599
milliseconds while a human can't

1107
00:39:35,829 --> 00:39:33,280
you know that was the explanation and

1108
00:39:37,510 --> 00:39:35,839
then they're like but go

1109
00:39:38,950 --> 00:39:37,520
that's out you know no way because

1110
00:39:40,870 --> 00:39:38,960
that's way too that's even more

1111
00:39:42,550 --> 00:39:40,880
complicated than chess the rules are

1112
00:39:43,270 --> 00:39:42,560
fuzzy and like

1113
00:39:45,750 --> 00:39:43,280
but

1114
00:39:47,670 --> 00:39:45,760
then yeah they you what so deep mind

1115
00:39:49,030 --> 00:39:47,680
used uh what they call reinforcement

1116
00:39:50,550 --> 00:39:49,040
learning

1117
00:39:52,390 --> 00:39:50,560
which is

1118
00:39:54,310 --> 00:39:52,400
it's based on you know theories about

1119
00:39:56,390 --> 00:39:54,320
how humans learn

1120
00:39:57,589 --> 00:39:56,400
through reward functions it's a quite a

1121
00:39:59,430 --> 00:39:57,599
simple

1122
00:40:01,190 --> 00:39:59,440
you know you give it or uh

1123
00:40:02,710 --> 00:40:01,200
you give someone a goal and you reward

1124
00:40:04,390 --> 00:40:02,720
them as they get close to the goal and

1125
00:40:06,630 --> 00:40:04,400
punish them as they move away and this

1126
00:40:09,349 --> 00:40:06,640
is like operant conditioning

1127
00:40:11,910 --> 00:40:09,359
bf skinner type

1128
00:40:14,309 --> 00:40:11,920
stuff and then when you combine that

1129
00:40:15,910 --> 00:40:14,319
reinforcement learning idea with deep

1130
00:40:17,750 --> 00:40:15,920
neural networks

1131
00:40:19,910 --> 00:40:17,760
and you can get the machine to play

1132
00:40:20,950 --> 00:40:19,920
millions and millions of games

1133
00:40:22,870 --> 00:40:20,960
then

1134
00:40:25,190 --> 00:40:22,880
you can so you it turns out you can

1135
00:40:27,829 --> 00:40:25,200
engineer a system that will beat

1136
00:40:30,390 --> 00:40:27,839
autonomously beat a human at go

1137
00:40:32,309 --> 00:40:30,400
um and it's not it's not brute it's not

1138
00:40:35,030 --> 00:40:32,319
tot it's so it's still a bit of a brute

1139
00:40:37,670 --> 00:40:35,040
force approach like i think the chess

1140
00:40:40,309 --> 00:40:37,680
the chess game is just brute forcing

1141
00:40:41,589 --> 00:40:40,319
just forcing all the possibilities

1142
00:40:44,069 --> 00:40:41,599
and arriving at that you know what i

1143
00:40:45,990 --> 00:40:44,079
mean before a human a human can't brute

1144
00:40:46,950 --> 00:40:46,000
force chess or go it's all it's much

1145
00:40:48,630 --> 00:40:46,960
more

1146
00:40:50,309 --> 00:40:48,640
of an intuitive

1147
00:40:51,430 --> 00:40:50,319
sense but the but the computer systems

1148
00:40:53,190 --> 00:40:51,440
you can

1149
00:40:54,470 --> 00:40:53,200
brute force it to a degree and then use

1150
00:40:55,990 --> 00:40:54,480
reinforcement learning to get it the

1151
00:40:57,750 --> 00:40:56,000
rest of the way and what was you know it

1152
00:41:00,230 --> 00:40:57,760
was really interesting because

1153
00:41:02,230 --> 00:41:00,240
alphago came up with moves

1154
00:41:04,390 --> 00:41:02,240
that as far as anyone could tell

1155
00:41:06,710 --> 00:41:04,400
a human no human has ever

1156
00:41:08,470 --> 00:41:06,720
tried and everyone was like oh my god

1157
00:41:11,990 --> 00:41:08,480
how did it

1158
00:41:13,030 --> 00:41:12,000
that's still kind of a

1159
00:41:14,470 --> 00:41:13,040
interesting

1160
00:41:16,950 --> 00:41:14,480
problem of like we don't really

1161
00:41:19,510 --> 00:41:16,960
understand how it arrived at

1162
00:41:21,349 --> 00:41:19,520
the winning moves when it when it leased

1163
00:41:22,950 --> 00:41:21,359
a doll so there's you know these systems

1164
00:41:24,550 --> 00:41:22,960
do have these

1165
00:41:25,990 --> 00:41:24,560
interesting properties and like you

1166
00:41:27,430 --> 00:41:26,000
mentioned emergence before you know

1167
00:41:29,589 --> 00:41:27,440
there's there's things that emerge out

1168
00:41:30,870 --> 00:41:29,599
of these systems that are

1169
00:41:32,710 --> 00:41:30,880
happening

1170
00:41:34,630 --> 00:41:32,720
that we that even the engineers and the

1171
00:41:36,790 --> 00:41:34,640
and the the people who developed it

1172
00:41:38,950 --> 00:41:36,800
can't anticipate they're like wow

1173
00:41:40,150 --> 00:41:38,960
that's that's crazy it did that you know

1174
00:41:42,390 --> 00:41:40,160
even though they're the ones who coded

1175
00:41:43,829 --> 00:41:42,400
it you know what i mean and so

1176
00:41:44,870 --> 00:41:43,839
and that's the part that scares people

1177
00:41:48,950 --> 00:41:44,880
right

1178
00:41:51,030 --> 00:41:48,960
even mention bf skinner

1179
00:41:54,390 --> 00:41:51,040
as kind of a model for how you would

1180
00:41:56,550 --> 00:41:54,400
program a self-learning thing and then

1181
00:41:59,190 --> 00:41:56,560
when you scale that you say

1182
00:42:00,470 --> 00:41:59,200
okay so we got and then you get you you

1183
00:42:01,910 --> 00:42:00,480
force yourself to be comfortable with

1184
00:42:04,069 --> 00:42:01,920
the idea that it's doing reward and

1185
00:42:06,950 --> 00:42:04,079
punishment you go yeah but then we just

1186
00:42:08,870 --> 00:42:06,960
had it do it to itself and it just ran

1187
00:42:11,670 --> 00:42:08,880
millions and millions of

1188
00:42:14,550 --> 00:42:11,680
trials on itself and you know oh

1189
00:42:16,630 --> 00:42:14,560
whoa and then the other thing you know

1190
00:42:19,750 --> 00:42:16,640
comment on this too so the alphago like

1191
00:42:22,309 --> 00:42:19,760
you say it generates

1192
00:42:24,710 --> 00:42:22,319
thinking for lack of a better term that

1193
00:42:27,270 --> 00:42:24,720
we couldn't really have anticipated

1194
00:42:28,470 --> 00:42:27,280
and then the humans look at the problem

1195
00:42:30,069 --> 00:42:28,480
different go

1196
00:42:31,589 --> 00:42:30,079
whoa one of the things i learned from

1197
00:42:32,470 --> 00:42:31,599
the computer is

1198
00:42:35,190 --> 00:42:32,480
that

1199
00:42:37,349 --> 00:42:35,200
i don't have to smash everybody at go

1200
00:42:39,030 --> 00:42:37,359
all i have to do is win by half a point

1201
00:42:40,470 --> 00:42:39,040
and that's i mean

1202
00:42:42,309 --> 00:42:40,480
you know the less

1203
00:42:44,309 --> 00:42:42,319
and this is an emerging area of research

1204
00:42:47,349 --> 00:42:44,319
too where

1205
00:42:48,309 --> 00:42:47,359
there's a few studies i think on

1206
00:42:50,710 --> 00:42:48,319
you know

1207
00:42:52,710 --> 00:42:50,720
working with the machines

1208
00:42:55,270 --> 00:42:52,720
so the machines alone

1209
00:42:57,349 --> 00:42:55,280
have faults and and and weaknesses and

1210
00:42:58,710 --> 00:42:57,359
blind spots humans have

1211
00:43:01,430 --> 00:42:58,720
faults and weaknesses and blind spots

1212
00:43:03,030 --> 00:43:01,440
and the idea would be when you

1213
00:43:04,790 --> 00:43:03,040
when you work together like without like

1214
00:43:05,990 --> 00:43:04,800
if you work together like a human alpha

1215
00:43:08,390 --> 00:43:06,000
go system

1216
00:43:11,109 --> 00:43:08,400
would just be completely unbeatable

1217
00:43:12,790 --> 00:43:11,119
and this is the thinking with um

1218
00:43:14,309 --> 00:43:12,800
diagnostics are like

1219
00:43:17,030 --> 00:43:14,319
let's not let's not say like oh

1220
00:43:19,349 --> 00:43:17,040
radiologists are irrelevant now or

1221
00:43:20,230 --> 00:43:19,359
obsolete because we have deep learning

1222
00:43:21,750 --> 00:43:20,240
on

1223
00:43:23,990 --> 00:43:21,760
cat scans

1224
00:43:25,430 --> 00:43:24,000
you know and and it's it's turn you know

1225
00:43:26,630 --> 00:43:25,440
there's a lot of studies showing that

1226
00:43:28,069 --> 00:43:26,640
there's a lot of weaknesses with

1227
00:43:30,390 --> 00:43:28,079
automated

1228
00:43:32,790 --> 00:43:30,400
diagnostic systems but then like let's

1229
00:43:34,950 --> 00:43:32,800
let's have a human there and like let's

1230
00:43:36,550 --> 00:43:34,960
use the pop the things that the human

1231
00:43:38,550 --> 00:43:36,560
can't do which is like

1232
00:43:40,630 --> 00:43:38,560
shuffle through gazillions of data

1233
00:43:42,710 --> 00:43:40,640
points and process all these images and

1234
00:43:45,109 --> 00:43:42,720
look for patterns but then you you know

1235
00:43:46,390 --> 00:43:45,119
complement that with the human ability

1236
00:43:49,349 --> 00:43:46,400
to see

1237
00:43:51,990 --> 00:43:49,359
still to use into intuition and and

1238
00:43:54,470 --> 00:43:52,000
judgment and like uh

1239
00:43:56,550 --> 00:43:54,480
so you know social context and

1240
00:43:59,190 --> 00:43:56,560
all of the things that we still don't

1241
00:44:00,550 --> 00:43:59,200
know how to get a computer to understand

1242
00:44:02,630 --> 00:44:00,560
and so it's this hybrid you know like

1243
00:44:03,670 --> 00:44:02,640
this sort of hybrid

1244
00:44:05,109 --> 00:44:03,680
you know i think there's people are like

1245
00:44:06,950 --> 00:44:05,119
oh the machines are going to take over

1246
00:44:08,870 --> 00:44:06,960
and and

1247
00:44:11,510 --> 00:44:08,880
it's like well no i mean we we should

1248
00:44:13,030 --> 00:44:11,520
cooperate basically is the because yeah

1249
00:44:14,550 --> 00:44:13,040
like like with go where it was like oh

1250
00:44:15,670 --> 00:44:14,560
they the machine showed us something

1251
00:44:17,270 --> 00:44:15,680
that we

1252
00:44:18,230 --> 00:44:17,280
human didn't never occurred to humans

1253
00:44:24,550 --> 00:44:18,240
you know

1254
00:44:25,750 --> 00:44:24,560
of break down because you say well

1255
00:44:29,670 --> 00:44:25,760
that's

1256
00:44:32,390 --> 00:44:29,680
right i mean and we've seen those steps

1257
00:44:33,829 --> 00:44:32,400
before so the the which kind of gets to

1258
00:44:36,470 --> 00:44:33,839
the belly of the beast questions that we

1259
00:44:38,630 --> 00:44:36,480
really do have to talk about because i

1260
00:44:41,750 --> 00:44:38,640
mean folks again i'm telling you you

1261
00:44:43,910 --> 00:44:41,760
don't know how awesome it is

1262
00:44:45,270 --> 00:44:43,920
to have andrew smart with us today

1263
00:44:48,790 --> 00:44:45,280
because

1264
00:44:50,230 --> 00:44:48,800
he is at the edge in his job at google

1265
00:44:51,589 --> 00:44:50,240
and his job at you were at twitter

1266
00:44:54,069 --> 00:44:51,599
before that right

1267
00:44:56,470 --> 00:44:54,079
yeah yeah i mean the these are really

1268
00:44:58,390 --> 00:44:56,480
the cutting edge

1269
00:45:00,309 --> 00:44:58,400
the cutting cutting edge of these kind

1270
00:45:03,829 --> 00:45:00,319
of questions because

1271
00:45:05,109 --> 00:45:03,839
you're now looking at it from a social

1272
00:45:06,309 --> 00:45:05,119
ethical

1273
00:45:09,109 --> 00:45:06,319
legal

1274
00:45:11,670 --> 00:45:09,119
uh kind of perspective and we can really

1275
00:45:13,589 --> 00:45:11,680
you know put the boxing gloves on about

1276
00:45:15,910 --> 00:45:13,599
that and have completely different

1277
00:45:17,829 --> 00:45:15,920
opinions about where it's going but we

1278
00:45:19,109 --> 00:45:17,839
cannot disagree that that's where the

1279
00:45:22,150 --> 00:45:19,119
action is

1280
00:45:24,230 --> 00:45:22,160
so frame up uh you know

1281
00:45:25,510 --> 00:45:24,240
what you do what you have done in the

1282
00:45:27,589 --> 00:45:25,520
past i think you have a little bit of a

1283
00:45:29,750 --> 00:45:27,599
different job at google now but you know

1284
00:45:31,829 --> 00:45:29,760
those issues you know i mean the good

1285
00:45:34,950 --> 00:45:31,839
and the bad the you know let's make sure

1286
00:45:38,230 --> 00:45:34,960
our search is uh socially just

1287
00:45:39,910 --> 00:45:38,240
and uh the bad you know let's censor the

1288
00:45:41,349 --> 00:45:39,920
[\h__\h] out of anyone who doesn't agree

1289
00:45:43,990 --> 00:45:41,359
with us you know and those would be the

1290
00:45:46,230 --> 00:45:44,000
two polar extremes

1291
00:45:48,630 --> 00:45:46,240
yeah those i mean and that's that's

1292
00:45:51,349 --> 00:45:48,640
really what were

1293
00:45:53,750 --> 00:45:51,359
i so i think that with any technology

1294
00:45:55,670 --> 00:45:53,760
you know in history you've had

1295
00:45:58,230 --> 00:45:55,680
this you know rapid advancements and

1296
00:46:00,309 --> 00:45:58,240
then you you typically have catastrophes

1297
00:46:01,349 --> 00:46:00,319
and disasters which lead to people going

1298
00:46:05,109 --> 00:46:01,359
like

1299
00:46:08,870 --> 00:46:05,119
aviation you know

1300
00:46:09,990 --> 00:46:08,880
it within a hundred years now it we have

1301
00:46:12,309 --> 00:46:10,000
flying used to be this kind of

1302
00:46:13,670 --> 00:46:12,319
fantastical

1303
00:46:15,430 --> 00:46:13,680
crazy dream and now it's like this

1304
00:46:19,109 --> 00:46:15,440
mundane thing that everyone totally

1305
00:46:21,030 --> 00:46:19,119
takes for granted but it took decades of

1306
00:46:22,309 --> 00:46:21,040
of manufacturers of companies and

1307
00:46:23,349 --> 00:46:22,319
governments and regulators working

1308
00:46:25,430 --> 00:46:23,359
together

1309
00:46:27,109 --> 00:46:25,440
to make commercial flying

1310
00:46:29,589 --> 00:46:27,119
safe enough where people are like oh

1311
00:46:31,990 --> 00:46:29,599
yeah i hop on a plane without even

1312
00:46:34,230 --> 00:46:32,000
i don't even worry about it but that

1313
00:46:36,790 --> 00:46:34,240
behind the scenes it's you know it's

1314
00:46:39,670 --> 00:46:36,800
this very very complicated

1315
00:46:42,470 --> 00:46:39,680
um constant vigilance type of safety

1316
00:46:44,470 --> 00:46:42,480
practices that have been learned over

1317
00:46:46,790 --> 00:46:44,480
decades so just just for example and so

1318
00:46:49,030 --> 00:46:46,800
with ai and machine learning

1319
00:46:51,430 --> 00:46:49,040
it's a similar thing where we're in this

1320
00:46:53,670 --> 00:46:51,440
rapid expansion of

1321
00:46:55,589 --> 00:46:53,680
investment and the everyone is like this

1322
00:46:57,109 --> 00:46:55,599
is amazing stuff and we're good you know

1323
00:46:59,030 --> 00:46:57,119
and now we're kind of coming to terms

1324
00:46:59,990 --> 00:46:59,040
with like there are downsides there are

1325
00:47:01,190 --> 00:47:00,000
risks

1326
00:47:05,270 --> 00:47:01,200
and

1327
00:47:07,270 --> 00:47:05,280
these systems

1328
00:47:09,109 --> 00:47:07,280
especially on the scale of google you

1329
00:47:11,990 --> 00:47:09,119
know of google

1330
00:47:13,349 --> 00:47:12,000
um how how do these things interact how

1331
00:47:14,630 --> 00:47:13,359
do these you know how are they

1332
00:47:18,390 --> 00:47:14,640
influenced by society how do they change

1333
00:47:20,630 --> 00:47:18,400
society and how do we yeah prevent

1334
00:47:21,750 --> 00:47:20,640
harm basically from

1335
00:47:24,309 --> 00:47:21,760
these things

1336
00:47:25,750 --> 00:47:24,319
um or how do we govern the development

1337
00:47:28,390 --> 00:47:25,760
of them

1338
00:47:30,230 --> 00:47:28,400
respond responsibly basically that's

1339
00:47:32,390 --> 00:47:30,240
and again these are terms these are hard

1340
00:47:34,549 --> 00:47:32,400
to define and hard to

1341
00:47:36,710 --> 00:47:34,559
let me frame it up and pin it down

1342
00:47:39,750 --> 00:47:36,720
in one way and it would be the freedom

1343
00:47:41,990 --> 00:47:39,760
of speech censorship

1344
00:47:44,069 --> 00:47:42,000
freedom of the press issue

1345
00:47:46,069 --> 00:47:44,079
so this is a fundamental fundamental

1346
00:47:47,750 --> 00:47:46,079
issue here you got some people on one

1347
00:47:49,190 --> 00:47:47,760
side saying

1348
00:47:51,829 --> 00:47:49,200
you know

1349
00:47:53,030 --> 00:47:51,839
these are platforms that we would

1350
00:47:55,750 --> 00:47:53,040
consider

1351
00:47:59,030 --> 00:47:55,760
throughout our lives as being freedom of

1352
00:48:01,430 --> 00:47:59,040
the press that somehow there is speech

1353
00:48:03,109 --> 00:48:01,440
free speech being done there and that

1354
00:48:05,670 --> 00:48:03,119
should not be

1355
00:48:08,150 --> 00:48:05,680
inhibited in in some ways and all this

1356
00:48:10,710 --> 00:48:08,160
stuff gets very fuzzy so if we just

1357
00:48:12,390 --> 00:48:10,720
frame that as as the problem then i

1358
00:48:14,150 --> 00:48:12,400
thought what we should probably do

1359
00:48:17,670 --> 00:48:14,160
further is

1360
00:48:20,230 --> 00:48:17,680
help have you help us understand

1361
00:48:22,630 --> 00:48:20,240
your problem from an ai standpoint i

1362
00:48:24,470 --> 00:48:22,640
mean you're talking about lots

1363
00:48:27,270 --> 00:48:24,480
and lots of data

1364
00:48:28,069 --> 00:48:27,280
content at a level that's unimaginable

1365
00:48:30,870 --> 00:48:28,079
and

1366
00:48:34,230 --> 00:48:30,880
lots of legitimate concerns you know you

1367
00:48:36,710 --> 00:48:34,240
have illegal activity you have activity

1368
00:48:38,150 --> 00:48:36,720
that that anyone would find morally

1369
00:48:40,309 --> 00:48:38,160
reprehensible you know people

1370
00:48:42,549 --> 00:48:40,319
trafficking kids or exploiting other

1371
00:48:45,589 --> 00:48:42,559
people and stuff like that so what am i

1372
00:48:47,990 --> 00:48:45,599
missing in terms of framing kind of okay

1373
00:48:50,470 --> 00:48:48,000
here's the issue but then here's what

1374
00:48:52,549 --> 00:48:50,480
people maybe don't appreciate about

1375
00:48:53,910 --> 00:48:52,559
how hard that is

1376
00:48:55,589 --> 00:48:53,920
for you

1377
00:48:58,230 --> 00:48:55,599
as a you know

1378
00:49:00,309 --> 00:48:58,240
as a google guy

1379
00:49:02,230 --> 00:49:00,319
yeah well i agree i mean and there's

1380
00:49:04,790 --> 00:49:02,240
yeah i mean we there's there's

1381
00:49:06,309 --> 00:49:04,800
definitely very tightly regulated

1382
00:49:08,309 --> 00:49:06,319
things where

1383
00:49:10,630 --> 00:49:08,319
you know you you are obligated legally

1384
00:49:11,430 --> 00:49:10,640
to get rid of certain types of things

1385
00:49:13,510 --> 00:49:11,440
like

1386
00:49:15,910 --> 00:49:13,520
or you know and so

1387
00:49:17,270 --> 00:49:15,920
but then i agree that i the the free

1388
00:49:18,470 --> 00:49:17,280
speech question is very hard night and

1389
00:49:20,630 --> 00:49:18,480
like i s like you mentioned i used to

1390
00:49:22,950 --> 00:49:20,640
work i did work at twitter for a year

1391
00:49:23,750 --> 00:49:22,960
right after the election and when it was

1392
00:49:26,309 --> 00:49:23,760
like

1393
00:49:27,990 --> 00:49:26,319
misinformation was suddenly

1394
00:49:30,069 --> 00:49:28,000
you know like in what what is you know

1395
00:49:31,589 --> 00:49:30,079
no that really blindsided the tech

1396
00:49:32,790 --> 00:49:31,599
industry

1397
00:49:35,030 --> 00:49:32,800
that would be highly highly

1398
00:49:35,910 --> 00:49:35,040
controversial right that i mean that

1399
00:49:37,670 --> 00:49:35,920
would be

1400
00:49:41,589 --> 00:49:37,680
that is the belly of the beast i mean

1401
00:49:44,549 --> 00:49:41,599
misinformation was it was and is

1402
00:49:47,270 --> 00:49:44,559
the question you know everyone's one

1403
00:49:49,589 --> 00:49:47,280
guy's misinformation is another guy's

1404
00:49:50,950 --> 00:49:49,599
information so yeah right exactly and

1405
00:49:54,309 --> 00:49:50,960
that's where

1406
00:49:56,630 --> 00:49:54,319
what's our shared reality

1407
00:49:59,589 --> 00:49:56,640
you know what's our what and and do is

1408
00:50:01,109 --> 00:49:59,599
there such a thing and like you then you

1409
00:50:02,390 --> 00:50:01,119
i you know it overlaps with all these

1410
00:50:03,910 --> 00:50:02,400
philosophical questions we were talking

1411
00:50:05,910 --> 00:50:03,920
about before where you then you go back

1412
00:50:07,030 --> 00:50:05,920
into some kind of relativism

1413
00:50:08,790 --> 00:50:07,040
where

1414
00:50:11,829 --> 00:50:08,800
there you know yeah like you're saying

1415
00:50:14,470 --> 00:50:11,839
each each perspective is equally

1416
00:50:16,390 --> 00:50:14,480
valid or you know there are like is

1417
00:50:19,030 --> 00:50:16,400
there such a thing as false belief or

1418
00:50:20,549 --> 00:50:19,040
like are you know can you be wrong

1419
00:50:21,990 --> 00:50:20,559
and i think the scientific spirit would

1420
00:50:23,589 --> 00:50:22,000
be like yeah everything you know is

1421
00:50:24,829 --> 00:50:23,599
probably wrong and you should keep

1422
00:50:27,190 --> 00:50:24,839
trying to prove yourself

1423
00:50:29,510 --> 00:50:27,200
wrong you know and that's

1424
00:50:31,270 --> 00:50:29,520
the the the environment i think too like

1425
00:50:32,950 --> 00:50:31,280
you mentioned before would be a very

1426
00:50:34,630 --> 00:50:32,960
strong proponent of like you should be

1427
00:50:36,950 --> 00:50:34,640
absolutely prepared at every moment to

1428
00:50:38,790 --> 00:50:36,960
reject everything you think you know

1429
00:50:39,910 --> 00:50:38,800
and and so

1430
00:50:41,510 --> 00:50:39,920
given that you know what i mean give it

1431
00:50:43,430 --> 00:50:41,520
and then there's debates about like okay

1432
00:50:44,790 --> 00:50:43,440
so what counts as evidence

1433
00:50:46,710 --> 00:50:44,800
and you you can't interpret your

1434
00:50:48,710 --> 00:50:46,720
evidence unless you have some kind of

1435
00:50:50,390 --> 00:50:48,720
theory about what you think evident good

1436
00:50:51,990 --> 00:50:50,400
evidences and

1437
00:50:54,150 --> 00:50:52,000
but anyway sorry that's

1438
00:50:55,990 --> 00:50:54,160
no no no that's that's spot on i if i

1439
00:50:57,510 --> 00:50:56,000
can i'll i'll kind of frame it up in a

1440
00:50:59,030 --> 00:50:57,520
more concrete way

1441
00:51:01,270 --> 00:50:59,040
just so we're all talking about the same

1442
00:51:02,790 --> 00:51:01,280
thing let's say the president came out

1443
00:51:05,190 --> 00:51:02,800
tomorrow and

1444
00:51:07,430 --> 00:51:05,200
started beating the war drums against

1445
00:51:09,589 --> 00:51:07,440
china which is completely just a thought

1446
00:51:11,190 --> 00:51:09,599
experiment you know but he's just he's

1447
00:51:13,750 --> 00:51:11,200
not announcing we're going to war he's

1448
00:51:16,150 --> 00:51:13,760
just going man [\h__\h] those chinese and

1449
00:51:17,829 --> 00:51:16,160
you know they taiwan we need to you know

1450
00:51:19,109 --> 00:51:17,839
just starts doing all the stuff that

1451
00:51:21,190 --> 00:51:19,119
various

1452
00:51:23,030 --> 00:51:21,200
administrations have done over time and

1453
00:51:25,990 --> 00:51:23,040
will do for so

1454
00:51:28,549 --> 00:51:26,000
let's say the day after that our friends

1455
00:51:29,950 --> 00:51:28,559
at google youtube facebook twitter kind

1456
00:51:31,589 --> 00:51:29,960
of

1457
00:51:33,270 --> 00:51:31,599
independently

1458
00:51:35,349 --> 00:51:33,280
announced that hey we're really down

1459
00:51:37,589 --> 00:51:35,359
with the president on this and as a

1460
00:51:40,630 --> 00:51:37,599
matter of fact you know

1461
00:51:42,549 --> 00:51:40,640
people who are against this policy you

1462
00:51:44,390 --> 00:51:42,559
know all you commies out there and all

1463
00:51:46,470 --> 00:51:44,400
you uh you know

1464
00:51:48,790 --> 00:51:46,480
china lovers and all that stuff you know

1465
00:51:50,950 --> 00:51:48,800
just expect but let me put you on notice

1466
00:51:54,470 --> 00:51:50,960
you know that's not we're really down

1467
00:51:55,829 --> 00:51:54,480
with the president's new position so

1468
00:51:57,910 --> 00:51:55,839
the reason that thought experiment

1469
00:52:00,710 --> 00:51:57,920
here's the thing that that kind of grabs

1470
00:52:03,670 --> 00:52:00,720
me is 10 years ago

1471
00:52:05,990 --> 00:52:03,680
we'd all be like you can't do that

1472
00:52:07,670 --> 00:52:06,000
you can't go google you can't do that

1473
00:52:10,309 --> 00:52:07,680
youtube you can't do that which is

1474
00:52:12,230 --> 00:52:10,319
google but facebook twitter you you guys

1475
00:52:14,150 --> 00:52:12,240
can't do that you especially can't kind

1476
00:52:16,230 --> 00:52:14,160
of get together in some kind of

1477
00:52:17,510 --> 00:52:16,240
organized way

1478
00:52:19,349 --> 00:52:17,520
even though you're saying it's not

1479
00:52:20,870 --> 00:52:19,359
organized and do that i mean you can't

1480
00:52:23,270 --> 00:52:20,880
do that this is what we've always

1481
00:52:24,870 --> 00:52:23,280
maintained is special about america and

1482
00:52:26,950 --> 00:52:24,880
our freedom of press

1483
00:52:30,309 --> 00:52:26,960
so

1484
00:52:31,829 --> 00:52:30,319
i guess the pushback and i'm going to be

1485
00:52:34,470 --> 00:52:31,839
the one pushing back

1486
00:52:37,589 --> 00:52:34,480
is when i hear you talk about wokeness

1487
00:52:39,750 --> 00:52:37,599
issues and social justice

1488
00:52:44,230 --> 00:52:39,760
and all of that i'm like

1489
00:52:47,430 --> 00:52:44,240
screw that man stop censoring people

1490
00:52:49,430 --> 00:52:47,440
or at least be transparent

1491
00:52:52,309 --> 00:52:49,440
yeah i mean we the transparency issue is

1492
00:52:55,589 --> 00:52:52,319
something we we work a lot on and what

1493
00:52:59,190 --> 00:52:55,599
the the pro the thing is is that the

1494
00:53:03,109 --> 00:53:02,069
like and again i'm not that in that

1495
00:53:05,910 --> 00:53:03,119
position

1496
00:53:08,069 --> 00:53:05,920
where i have insight into

1497
00:53:10,150 --> 00:53:08,079
that totally fair yeah yeah i'm not

1498
00:53:10,950 --> 00:53:10,160
putting you you're not representing you

1499
00:53:12,470 --> 00:53:10,960
know

1500
00:53:13,430 --> 00:53:12,480
you're not carrying this whole thing

1501
00:53:14,870 --> 00:53:13,440
yeah

1502
00:53:17,270 --> 00:53:14,880
i mean of course i have my own thoughts

1503
00:53:18,950 --> 00:53:17,280
about it but then i don't have

1504
00:53:21,510 --> 00:53:18,960
yeah i'm not like

1505
00:53:24,390 --> 00:53:21,520
the the sort of i think what the the

1506
00:53:26,309 --> 00:53:24,400
policy issues are around

1507
00:53:27,910 --> 00:53:26,319
like

1508
00:53:30,150 --> 00:53:27,920
yeah and it does you know there's this

1509
00:53:32,390 --> 00:53:30,160
debate around should the companies be

1510
00:53:33,430 --> 00:53:32,400
responsible for the content

1511
00:53:34,230 --> 00:53:33,440
on the

1512
00:53:36,230 --> 00:53:34,240
thing

1513
00:53:37,430 --> 00:53:36,240
and and the the problem is that google

1514
00:53:39,670 --> 00:53:37,440
doesn't have

1515
00:53:42,309 --> 00:53:39,680
or youtube you know they're not relative

1516
00:53:45,109 --> 00:53:42,319
to the number of people using it it's

1517
00:53:47,270 --> 00:53:45,119
actually a very tiny workforce in terms

1518
00:53:49,030 --> 00:53:47,280
of which is which is the idea because

1519
00:53:50,710 --> 00:53:49,040
that's why these systems are scale you

1520
00:53:53,349 --> 00:53:50,720
the systems are scalable and they make a

1521
00:53:55,190 --> 00:53:53,359
lot of money because they're so scalable

1522
00:53:57,190 --> 00:53:55,200
well this is also the ai issue this is

1523
00:53:59,109 --> 00:53:57,200
the ai issue right this is why you're

1524
00:54:01,750 --> 00:53:59,119
automating you can't automate these

1525
00:54:03,270 --> 00:54:01,760
decisions it's very very hard but you

1526
00:54:05,910 --> 00:54:03,280
have to automate these you have to you

1527
00:54:07,510 --> 00:54:05,920
already are and you have to continue to

1528
00:54:10,630 --> 00:54:07,520
because well because of the scale you

1529
00:54:12,230 --> 00:54:10,640
know because you have billions of people

1530
00:54:13,589 --> 00:54:12,240
every day you know the servers are

1531
00:54:16,150 --> 00:54:13,599
handling

1532
00:54:17,750 --> 00:54:16,160
trillions of requests per second and

1533
00:54:20,790 --> 00:54:17,760
down you know and you obviously you

1534
00:54:22,390 --> 00:54:20,800
can't have human eyes on

1535
00:54:23,589 --> 00:54:22,400
that you know what i mean it's just even

1536
00:54:25,349 --> 00:54:23,599
if you you know i don't even know if

1537
00:54:26,870 --> 00:54:25,359
it's possible if even if google says all

1538
00:54:28,870 --> 00:54:26,880
right we're investing in content

1539
00:54:31,030 --> 00:54:28,880
moderation and we're going to hire you'd

1540
00:54:32,950 --> 00:54:31,040
have to hire literally i don't know

1541
00:54:33,829 --> 00:54:32,960
millions of people

1542
00:54:35,030 --> 00:54:33,839
and

1543
00:54:38,549 --> 00:54:35,040
so that the autumn there's the

1544
00:54:41,030 --> 00:54:38,559
automation stage of it which um you you

1545
00:54:44,549 --> 00:54:41,040
tried to monitor but i mean

1546
00:54:46,230 --> 00:54:44,559
the whole the like google's you know

1547
00:54:48,309 --> 00:54:46,240
the the thing is like the idea is like

1548
00:54:50,549 --> 00:54:48,319
we want to serve everybody

1549
00:54:53,589 --> 00:54:50,559
you know and that and how do you

1550
00:54:55,430 --> 00:54:53,599
make this information accessible

1551
00:54:56,870 --> 00:54:55,440
to everybody but i agree it comes at

1552
00:54:59,430 --> 00:54:56,880
this at this

1553
00:55:01,030 --> 00:54:59,440
um cost of

1554
00:55:04,150 --> 00:55:01,040
how do you you know

1555
00:55:07,030 --> 00:55:04,160
like if you if you take it to another

1556
00:55:08,710 --> 00:55:07,040
you know if you do have an adversarial

1557
00:55:10,390 --> 00:55:08,720
government or

1558
00:55:12,630 --> 00:55:10,400
anyway i agree it's all it's really

1559
00:55:15,190 --> 00:55:12,640
relative to your perspective but like

1560
00:55:16,230 --> 00:55:15,200
deliberately misleading people

1561
00:55:18,630 --> 00:55:16,240
um

1562
00:55:20,390 --> 00:55:18,640
what should you know what should your

1563
00:55:22,309 --> 00:55:20,400
and i agree with the even you know but

1564
00:55:25,270 --> 00:55:22,319
for you know free speech

1565
00:55:26,470 --> 00:55:25,280
does have limits of course too

1566
00:55:28,309 --> 00:55:26,480
and there's and there's lots of

1567
00:55:30,230 --> 00:55:28,319
different legal regimes around the world

1568
00:55:31,510 --> 00:55:30,240
that are far more

1569
00:55:34,069 --> 00:55:31,520
restrictive than

1570
00:55:35,589 --> 00:55:34,079
than we have and i don't you know and

1571
00:55:37,510 --> 00:55:35,599
there's there's always like i said

1572
00:55:39,270 --> 00:55:37,520
before about this

1573
00:55:42,069 --> 00:55:39,280
being a publisher versus this platform

1574
00:55:44,230 --> 00:55:42,079
and like are are we

1575
00:55:46,829 --> 00:55:44,240
if you find some something

1576
00:55:49,430 --> 00:55:46,839
on that that has moved through the

1577
00:55:51,270 --> 00:55:49,440
system um

1578
00:55:53,109 --> 00:55:51,280
does do we have does google have some

1579
00:55:54,950 --> 00:55:53,119
kind of responsibility for

1580
00:55:56,789 --> 00:55:54,960
what and so i think the arguments from a

1581
00:55:59,349 --> 00:55:56,799
lot of the sectors are like yes you need

1582
00:56:02,230 --> 00:55:59,359
to take responsibility for a lot of this

1583
00:56:03,910 --> 00:56:02,240
horrible crap that is on your platforms

1584
00:56:05,589 --> 00:56:03,920
and so the but then the question is how

1585
00:56:07,589 --> 00:56:05,599
do you balance that with

1586
00:56:09,990 --> 00:56:07,599
yeah like you're saying that free like

1587
00:56:11,670 --> 00:56:10,000
allowing an open

1588
00:56:13,190 --> 00:56:11,680
and free internet where

1589
00:56:18,390 --> 00:56:13,200
you know there

1590
00:56:21,349 --> 00:56:18,400
a lot of like

1591
00:56:23,349 --> 00:56:21,359
difficult information and

1592
00:56:24,870 --> 00:56:23,359
stuff to deal with so i don't i don't

1593
00:56:26,470 --> 00:56:24,880
i'm sorry i don't have a i wish i had a

1594
00:56:27,750 --> 00:56:26,480
better i don't have a good answer to

1595
00:56:29,270 --> 00:56:27,760
that i mean that's these are problems

1596
00:56:31,270 --> 00:56:29,280
that are

1597
00:56:33,510 --> 00:56:31,280
being worked on

1598
00:56:35,589 --> 00:56:33,520
i i think that is the answer and i mean

1599
00:56:37,910 --> 00:56:35,599
i think this is what we're trying to

1600
00:56:39,670 --> 00:56:37,920
work out as a society you know and

1601
00:56:41,910 --> 00:56:39,680
wrestle to the ground and as you point

1602
00:56:43,750 --> 00:56:41,920
out they always have been

1603
00:56:46,150 --> 00:56:43,760
the issues you know this freedom of the

1604
00:56:48,069 --> 00:56:46,160
press issue this has been around

1605
00:56:49,349 --> 00:56:48,079
forever ever since you know benjamin

1606
00:56:51,349 --> 00:56:49,359
franklin was

1607
00:56:53,670 --> 00:56:51,359
point you know pumping him out and but

1608
00:56:55,589 --> 00:56:53,680
and then it got to be well we have these

1609
00:56:57,109 --> 00:56:55,599
three networks and you know what are

1610
00:56:58,390 --> 00:56:57,119
their responsibilities and it's only

1611
00:57:00,789 --> 00:56:58,400
three networks then we had this

1612
00:57:03,190 --> 00:57:00,799
explosion of cable news and it's then it

1613
00:57:05,750 --> 00:57:03,200
it morphed into something else where

1614
00:57:07,190 --> 00:57:05,760
partisanship was okay and now it's kind

1615
00:57:10,549 --> 00:57:07,200
of morphing into

1616
00:57:12,789 --> 00:57:10,559
something else and i think we do have to

1617
00:57:14,710 --> 00:57:12,799
acknowledge what you're

1618
00:57:17,270 --> 00:57:14,720
what i think you really bring here and i

1619
00:57:20,309 --> 00:57:17,280
i'm so again grateful that you've you

1620
00:57:22,390 --> 00:57:20,319
know are so open and talking about this

1621
00:57:24,549 --> 00:57:22,400
like one thing i really want to drive a

1622
00:57:27,190 --> 00:57:24,559
stake in the ground is the problem

1623
00:57:30,150 --> 00:57:27,200
the problem which you frame up nicely

1624
00:57:32,470 --> 00:57:30,160
which is like okay dude but trillions

1625
00:57:36,230 --> 00:57:32,480
trillions of requests

1626
00:57:38,950 --> 00:57:36,240
okay so there ain't no easy answer here

1627
00:57:41,430 --> 00:57:38,960
any way you cut it you know now i think

1628
00:57:43,990 --> 00:57:41,440
the concern that people have is

1629
00:57:45,510 --> 00:57:44,000
well don't tell me put my trust in

1630
00:57:47,190 --> 00:57:45,520
google either

1631
00:57:50,710 --> 00:57:47,200
you know because

1632
00:57:53,589 --> 00:57:50,720
i tell you like one of the things i find

1633
00:57:56,549 --> 00:57:53,599
you know kind of most disturbing on the

1634
00:57:58,230 --> 00:57:56,559
edge but it it it plays you know it all

1635
00:57:59,990 --> 00:57:58,240
kind of sorts itself out so i don't want

1636
00:58:01,510 --> 00:58:00,000
to kind of sound the alarm bells too

1637
00:58:03,589 --> 00:58:01,520
much but

1638
00:58:05,910 --> 00:58:03,599
i got a friend a guy's been on the show

1639
00:58:08,549 --> 00:58:05,920
luke rotkowski and he has a kind of

1640
00:58:10,870 --> 00:58:08,559
semi-popular website it's called uh we

1641
00:58:12,950 --> 00:58:10,880
are change so he's a 911 guy you know

1642
00:58:15,109 --> 00:58:12,960
911 was an inside job and he's still

1643
00:58:16,710 --> 00:58:15,119
there he's not banned

1644
00:58:19,030 --> 00:58:16,720
a lot of the other guys that say that

1645
00:58:21,670 --> 00:58:19,040
are banned but he's not banned

1646
00:58:24,870 --> 00:58:21,680
but what he was was demonetized

1647
00:58:27,430 --> 00:58:24,880
and he was demonetized in 2015 before

1648
00:58:30,069 --> 00:58:27,440
there was even such a word

1649
00:58:31,829 --> 00:58:30,079
and he just he just did videos on it it

1650
00:58:33,430 --> 00:58:31,839
was like here's my video here's more

1651
00:58:35,190 --> 00:58:33,440
here's all my videos here they are last

1652
00:58:37,190 --> 00:58:35,200
month here they are now

1653
00:58:39,910 --> 00:58:37,200
they're demonetized there's no

1654
00:58:43,829 --> 00:58:39,920
explanation for why they're demonetized

1655
00:58:45,829 --> 00:58:43,839
there's no process there's no guidelines

1656
00:58:46,630 --> 00:58:45,839
they're demonetized

1657
00:58:49,190 --> 00:58:46,640
or

1658
00:58:51,190 --> 00:58:49,200
go over on twitter in the shadow band

1659
00:58:52,710 --> 00:58:51,200
oh your tweets ah

1660
00:58:54,470 --> 00:58:52,720
well they're reaching one tenth of the

1661
00:58:56,950 --> 00:58:54,480
audience than they used to we don't

1662
00:59:01,910 --> 00:58:56,960
admit that they do when someone goes in

1663
00:59:04,309 --> 00:59:01,920
and forensically proves that we just so

1664
00:59:07,349 --> 00:59:04,319
these i i think the issue really i think

1665
00:59:10,069 --> 00:59:07,359
the issue is is is two one is

1666
00:59:11,750 --> 00:59:10,079
transparency and the second issue i take

1667
00:59:13,190 --> 00:59:11,760
from my business

1668
00:59:16,069 --> 00:59:13,200
background

1669
00:59:17,030 --> 00:59:16,079
is the it's called the [\h__\h] you pay me

1670
00:59:19,430 --> 00:59:17,040
issue

1671
00:59:20,230 --> 00:59:19,440
which is like i get to sue your [\h__\h]

1672
00:59:23,109 --> 00:59:20,240
ass

1673
00:59:26,549 --> 00:59:23,119
and if you've you know not done it right

1674
00:59:27,430 --> 00:59:26,559
then i get to get paid and then you have

1675
00:59:32,069 --> 00:59:27,440
to

1676
00:59:34,309 --> 00:59:32,079
yourself from any legislation that would

1677
00:59:36,150 --> 00:59:34,319
make it easier for me to do that and

1678
00:59:38,309 --> 00:59:36,160
then i have to try and do that and that

1679
00:59:40,390 --> 00:59:38,319
is i'm not trying to do that to be like

1680
00:59:43,670 --> 00:59:40,400
adversarial with you i'm just saying

1681
00:59:45,270 --> 00:59:43,680
this is how business has always resolved

1682
00:59:47,750 --> 00:59:45,280
you know these issues if you think

1683
00:59:50,309 --> 00:59:47,760
they're dumping chemicals into the love

1684
00:59:53,030 --> 00:59:50,319
canal and it's killing your kids well

1685
00:59:54,870 --> 00:59:53,040
then you you sue them and then dow

1686
00:59:57,670 --> 00:59:54,880
chemical does everything they can to

1687
01:00:00,549 --> 00:59:57,680
prevent people from prevailing and then

1688
01:00:05,030 --> 01:00:00,559
eventually the legal system kind of

1689
01:00:06,710 --> 01:00:05,040
meanders to some space that we get so

1690
01:00:10,150 --> 01:00:06,720
i know i let a lot on the table there

1691
01:00:12,630 --> 01:00:10,160
but the transparency and then the

1692
01:00:14,150 --> 01:00:12,640
uh financial responsibility if it

1693
01:00:16,470 --> 01:00:14,160
doesn't

1694
01:00:18,390 --> 01:00:16,480
you know live up to our standards of

1695
01:00:19,910 --> 01:00:18,400
what fairness is

1696
01:00:22,549 --> 01:00:19,920
yeah i mean i think that's that's

1697
01:00:24,309 --> 01:00:22,559
definitely i mean i would say

1698
01:00:27,030 --> 01:00:24,319
i mean i don't i can't i don't know

1699
01:00:29,190 --> 01:00:27,040
those that case or you know and i don't

1700
01:00:31,510 --> 01:00:29,200
so i and like like i said i have no

1701
01:00:33,430 --> 01:00:31,520
thousands and thousands just search

1702
01:00:34,950 --> 01:00:33,440
there's thousands of those cases

1703
01:00:37,109 --> 01:00:34,960
thousands of them

1704
01:00:39,910 --> 01:00:37,119
yeah or any of i mean because i i don't

1705
01:00:41,510 --> 01:00:39,920
work in that in in that area but like i

1706
01:00:43,109 --> 01:00:41,520
think there's a you know i think you do

1707
01:00:44,710 --> 01:00:43,119
have to

1708
01:00:47,430 --> 01:00:44,720
and this is again where the difficult

1709
01:00:50,150 --> 01:00:47,440
part about the shared reality and like

1710
01:00:50,950 --> 01:00:50,160
have some kind of standards

1711
01:00:53,589 --> 01:00:50,960
for

1712
01:00:55,829 --> 01:00:53,599
what you and and again this is a it's a

1713
01:00:57,910 --> 01:00:55,839
conundrum

1714
01:01:00,150 --> 01:00:57,920
like the scale and the size of google is

1715
01:01:02,789 --> 01:01:00,160
and the idea is like to be able to

1716
01:01:07,030 --> 01:01:02,799
serve you know serve everybody

1717
01:01:08,150 --> 01:01:07,040
but then coming up with like responsible

1718
01:01:11,589 --> 01:01:08,160
like what are the guidelines what are

1719
01:01:13,910 --> 01:01:11,599
the standards for what kind of things

1720
01:01:15,030 --> 01:01:13,920
can live on the platform

1721
01:01:16,069 --> 01:01:15,040
and like you're saying there's these

1722
01:01:17,349 --> 01:01:16,079
there's these things everyone would

1723
01:01:20,390 --> 01:01:17,359
agree on

1724
01:01:21,430 --> 01:01:20,400
child trafficking stuff like no that you

1725
01:01:22,470 --> 01:01:21,440
know what i mean there's just stuff

1726
01:01:24,710 --> 01:01:22,480
that's like

1727
01:01:27,670 --> 01:01:24,720
everyone be like that's awful but then i

1728
01:01:29,430 --> 01:01:27,680
agree as you move into these

1729
01:01:31,510 --> 01:01:29,440
different areas it's really i don't i

1730
01:01:33,510 --> 01:01:31,520
don't i don't know how to draw the line

1731
01:01:34,630 --> 01:01:33,520
you know do i think people have a right

1732
01:01:37,190 --> 01:01:34,640
to

1733
01:01:38,390 --> 01:01:37,200
publish work on conspiracy theories and

1734
01:01:39,910 --> 01:01:38,400
like

1735
01:01:41,510 --> 01:01:39,920
discuss these different things of

1736
01:01:43,270 --> 01:01:41,520
obvious you know of course i don't i

1737
01:01:44,789 --> 01:01:43,280
don't think that should be like

1738
01:01:46,789 --> 01:01:44,799
legally restricted

1739
01:01:48,470 --> 01:01:46,799
i don't but then whether

1740
01:01:50,829 --> 01:01:48,480
you know whether like a private company

1741
01:01:53,270 --> 01:01:50,839
like google has a

1742
01:01:54,950 --> 01:01:53,280
responsibility yeah you know if like and

1743
01:01:57,109 --> 01:01:54,960
again people bring up then it's this

1744
01:01:58,870 --> 01:01:57,119
private company issues like if you want

1745
01:01:59,910 --> 01:01:58,880
to use the services like here's the

1746
01:02:01,829 --> 01:01:59,920
terms

1747
01:02:03,670 --> 01:02:01,839
and these are these are not and i agree

1748
01:02:05,190 --> 01:02:03,680
with the transparency like

1749
01:02:07,029 --> 01:02:05,200
it's it's almost like you don't it's

1750
01:02:08,710 --> 01:02:07,039
like uh you don't put you don't put uh

1751
01:02:09,910 --> 01:02:08,720
speed limit signs up and then you'd be

1752
01:02:11,829 --> 01:02:09,920
like you're speeding

1753
01:02:13,510 --> 01:02:11,839
you're you you know what i mean like the

1754
01:02:15,990 --> 01:02:13,520
i agree with the trend the rules have to

1755
01:02:18,069 --> 01:02:16,000
be but the the rules are

1756
01:02:20,710 --> 01:02:18,079
changing and and it's it's trying to

1757
01:02:22,309 --> 01:02:20,720
respond to these different

1758
01:02:24,309 --> 01:02:22,319
i mean i'm definitely not a free speech

1759
01:02:26,390 --> 01:02:24,319
absolutist

1760
01:02:28,150 --> 01:02:26,400
in that sense

1761
01:02:29,750 --> 01:02:28,160
and i don't but i don't i mean i don't

1762
01:02:32,230 --> 01:02:29,760
know

1763
01:02:34,789 --> 01:02:32,240
yeah i wish

1764
01:02:35,750 --> 01:02:34,799
i don't have i don't have better answers

1765
01:02:36,870 --> 01:02:35,760
than that

1766
01:02:39,750 --> 01:02:36,880
well well

1767
01:02:41,589 --> 01:02:39,760
as we move towards wrapping it up

1768
01:02:43,349 --> 01:02:41,599
let me ask you a question more relevant

1769
01:02:45,190 --> 01:02:43,359
to your job

1770
01:02:46,549 --> 01:02:45,200
yeah you know take this discussion we're

1771
01:02:50,549 --> 01:02:46,559
having

1772
01:02:53,109 --> 01:02:50,559
what parts of it are particularly

1773
01:02:54,950 --> 01:02:53,119
relevant interesting pressing and

1774
01:02:56,870 --> 01:02:54,960
interesting to you you know because

1775
01:02:59,270 --> 01:02:56,880
you're such a thinker and anyone who

1776
01:03:01,109 --> 01:02:59,280
reads this this book and i do encourage

1777
01:03:04,390 --> 01:03:01,119
you to pick up this book it's

1778
01:03:06,309 --> 01:03:04,400
really fantastic and if you want to know

1779
01:03:07,910 --> 01:03:06,319
how some of the

1780
01:03:09,589 --> 01:03:07,920
thought leaders i hate to use that term

1781
01:03:10,630 --> 01:03:09,599
but how some of the people who are

1782
01:03:12,390 --> 01:03:10,640
really

1783
01:03:15,029 --> 01:03:12,400
trying to wrestle these issues to the

1784
01:03:16,950 --> 01:03:15,039
ground how they're thinking in some of

1785
01:03:19,190 --> 01:03:16,960
the novel ways that you wouldn't have

1786
01:03:20,870 --> 01:03:19,200
anticipated then pick up beyond zero and

1787
01:03:24,710 --> 01:03:20,880
one machine psychedelics and

1788
01:03:27,349 --> 01:03:24,720
consciousness but then so andrew

1789
01:03:28,950 --> 01:03:27,359
yeah what do you find interesting

1790
01:03:31,990 --> 01:03:28,960
about this discussion we've been having

1791
01:03:33,589 --> 01:03:32,000
relative to your job because you do i i

1792
01:03:34,309 --> 01:03:33,599
didn't mean to discount it you do care

1793
01:03:37,750 --> 01:03:34,319
about

1794
01:03:40,150 --> 01:03:37,760
social issues and you you have an issue

1795
01:03:43,990 --> 01:03:40,160
of hey let's make sure we're being let's

1796
01:03:46,549 --> 01:03:44,000
make sure we're being fair there too and

1797
01:03:48,230 --> 01:03:46,559
you want to speak to to how that relates

1798
01:03:50,710 --> 01:03:48,240
to what you think you can do to make the

1799
01:03:51,990 --> 01:03:50,720
world a better place with ai and these

1800
01:03:53,589 --> 01:03:52,000
kind of things

1801
01:03:55,109 --> 01:03:53,599
well yeah my i mean i'm really

1802
01:03:56,950 --> 01:03:55,119
interested in

1803
01:03:59,510 --> 01:03:56,960
what people talk about as like these

1804
01:04:00,549 --> 01:03:59,520
socio-technical systems

1805
01:04:01,589 --> 01:04:00,559
so

1806
01:04:03,430 --> 01:04:01,599
it's

1807
01:04:05,589 --> 01:04:03,440
not looking narrowly at technical

1808
01:04:06,390 --> 01:04:05,599
failure in

1809
01:04:16,549 --> 01:04:06,400
in

1810
01:04:18,390 --> 01:04:16,559
yeah society and and what and you know

1811
01:04:20,470 --> 01:04:18,400
like the issues you're talking about are

1812
01:04:22,309 --> 01:04:20,480
are super important too but

1813
01:04:25,589 --> 01:04:22,319
mainly what we what we're trying to do

1814
01:04:26,549 --> 01:04:25,599
is understand um

1815
01:04:28,789 --> 01:04:26,559
sort of

1816
01:04:32,150 --> 01:04:28,799
the if if you look at the une you know

1817
01:04:34,630 --> 01:04:32,160
you look at inequality for example or

1818
01:04:36,789 --> 01:04:34,640
the the way society is structured and

1819
01:04:38,950 --> 01:04:36,799
the way things run

1820
01:04:42,710 --> 01:04:38,960
go you know there's all this data that

1821
01:04:45,190 --> 01:04:42,720
is sampled from that social structure

1822
01:04:47,750 --> 01:04:45,200
upon which these models are trained

1823
01:04:49,750 --> 01:04:47,760
and then they're making predictions

1824
01:04:51,910 --> 01:04:49,760
people are taking that

1825
01:04:53,750 --> 01:04:51,920
information sometimes and using it

1826
01:04:55,510 --> 01:04:53,760
you know to do things which generates

1827
01:04:56,390 --> 01:04:55,520
more data and it's kind of this feedback

1828
01:04:58,549 --> 01:04:56,400
loop

1829
01:05:01,430 --> 01:04:58,559
and what we're trying to understand is

1830
01:05:03,270 --> 01:05:01,440
how do we intervene so that

1831
01:05:05,270 --> 01:05:03,280
we're not just blindly

1832
01:05:09,109 --> 01:05:05,280
reproducing

1833
01:05:11,910 --> 01:05:09,119
uh or recapitulating discrimination or

1834
01:05:13,829 --> 01:05:11,920
uh unfair unfair allocation of resources

1835
01:05:15,349 --> 01:05:13,839
or like bring that down to a practical

1836
01:05:17,750 --> 01:05:15,359
level that people might be under might

1837
01:05:19,589 --> 01:05:17,760
be able to kind of grasp

1838
01:05:24,390 --> 01:05:19,599
well i mean i think you can look at i

1839
01:05:28,150 --> 01:05:25,589
i guess it's a pretty clear example to

1840
01:05:29,430 --> 01:05:28,160
me where you have so and take facial

1841
01:05:31,349 --> 01:05:29,440
recognition

1842
01:05:33,109 --> 01:05:31,359
software which is in your phone to

1843
01:05:34,390 --> 01:05:33,119
unlock it sometimes or like

1844
01:05:35,589 --> 01:05:34,400
it's used

1845
01:05:37,190 --> 01:05:35,599
in a lot of different domains there's a

1846
01:05:39,029 --> 01:05:37,200
lot of controversy about it but one

1847
01:05:41,109 --> 01:05:39,039
clear lesson from

1848
01:05:41,990 --> 01:05:41,119
a lot of work that that my colleagues

1849
01:05:43,990 --> 01:05:42,000
and i

1850
01:05:46,150 --> 01:05:44,000
do is like

1851
01:05:48,309 --> 01:05:46,160
you train these systems and you have a

1852
01:05:49,510 --> 01:05:48,319
giant database of photographs and you

1853
01:05:51,190 --> 01:05:49,520
have these

1854
01:05:52,630 --> 01:05:51,200
you you feed these to the neural

1855
01:05:53,510 --> 01:05:52,640
networks they learn what a face looks

1856
01:05:54,950 --> 01:05:53,520
like

1857
01:05:56,870 --> 01:05:54,960
and then they then they can pretty

1858
01:05:58,870 --> 01:05:56,880
accurately predict

1859
01:06:00,549 --> 01:05:58,880
oh it's out you know i see these pixels

1860
01:06:02,549 --> 01:06:00,559
and i know that's alex i or with you

1861
01:06:03,510 --> 01:06:02,559
know 89 whatever

1862
01:06:05,990 --> 01:06:03,520
90.

1863
01:06:08,309 --> 01:06:06,000
so the problem was that these databases

1864
01:06:11,029 --> 01:06:08,319
these training data sets were mostly

1865
01:06:13,190 --> 01:06:11,039
white people mostly white

1866
01:06:14,870 --> 01:06:13,200
men so when you use these systems and

1867
01:06:16,150 --> 01:06:14,880
they tend to be used more often on

1868
01:06:17,190 --> 01:06:16,160
darker skin

1869
01:06:18,950 --> 01:06:17,200
people

1870
01:06:21,670 --> 01:06:18,960
for lots of reasons

1871
01:06:22,950 --> 01:06:21,680
they they're like a chance and they they

1872
01:06:25,349 --> 01:06:22,960
don't either they don't see the face

1873
01:06:26,630 --> 01:06:25,359
it's the wrong face it's recognized and

1874
01:06:29,029 --> 01:06:26,640
it's like everyone goes well what's

1875
01:06:31,589 --> 01:06:29,039
going on here and it's like well

1876
01:06:33,670 --> 01:06:31,599
it turns out like nobody thought like oh

1877
01:06:35,750 --> 01:06:33,680
what if you know

1878
01:06:37,829 --> 01:06:35,760
if we use if we don't if we only have

1879
01:06:39,589 --> 01:06:37,839
white faces in the database and then we

1880
01:06:42,390 --> 01:06:39,599
use it on dark people it's probably not

1881
01:06:43,589 --> 01:06:42,400
going to work as as well and it's it's

1882
01:06:45,510 --> 01:06:43,599
these kinds of

1883
01:06:47,430 --> 01:06:45,520
things in retrospect seem super obvious

1884
01:06:49,349 --> 01:06:47,440
like well obviously

1885
01:06:51,349 --> 01:06:49,359
you you've got to train it on the

1886
01:06:53,510 --> 01:06:51,359
diversity of faces that you'll

1887
01:06:55,270 --> 01:06:53,520
ultimately use the system on

1888
01:06:56,870 --> 01:06:55,280
but this these are not things that

1889
01:06:59,270 --> 01:06:56,880
people have the force and so what we're

1890
01:07:01,349 --> 01:06:59,280
trying to develop is like

1891
01:07:03,190 --> 01:07:01,359
for these systems like are you you know

1892
01:07:04,549 --> 01:07:03,200
are these things kind of representative

1893
01:07:06,069 --> 01:07:04,559
of

1894
01:07:07,750 --> 01:07:06,079
the people that you're that will be

1895
01:07:08,870 --> 01:07:07,760
interacting with this and will it work

1896
01:07:10,549 --> 01:07:08,880
for them

1897
01:07:12,150 --> 01:07:10,559
in the same way the the question of

1898
01:07:13,750 --> 01:07:12,160
whether you should i mean i'm you know

1899
01:07:15,589 --> 01:07:13,760
there's this other question of like not

1900
01:07:18,150 --> 01:07:15,599
using this at all because it's

1901
01:07:19,990 --> 01:07:18,160
inherently problematic and

1902
01:07:21,750 --> 01:07:20,000
no we can't go backwards we can't go

1903
01:07:23,589 --> 01:07:21,760
backwards so it's beautiful it's a

1904
01:07:25,990 --> 01:07:23,599
beautiful example

1905
01:07:29,029 --> 01:07:26,000
yeah so and that's but you that kind of

1906
01:07:30,390 --> 01:07:29,039
problem is is rife through all machine

1907
01:07:31,670 --> 01:07:30,400
learning

1908
01:07:32,870 --> 01:07:31,680
where you're

1909
01:07:34,630 --> 01:07:32,880
you're training you're training your

1910
01:07:36,549 --> 01:07:34,640
models on this very narrow

1911
01:07:37,829 --> 01:07:36,559
type of person and then using that to

1912
01:07:39,029 --> 01:07:37,839
make predictions about different types

1913
01:07:42,150 --> 01:07:39,039
of people and

1914
01:07:44,630 --> 01:07:42,160
it doesn't work equally true in search

1915
01:07:46,950 --> 01:07:44,640
right equally true same problem in

1916
01:07:49,270 --> 01:07:46,960
search same problem

1917
01:07:51,670 --> 01:07:49,280
everywhere so everywhere

1918
01:07:53,670 --> 01:07:51,680
yeah and it is it to me it's this it's

1919
01:07:56,950 --> 01:07:53,680
this problem of scale

1920
01:07:58,950 --> 01:07:56,960
and uh i don't you know i that's a

1921
01:08:01,990 --> 01:07:58,960
it's a this is a hard you know the tech

1922
01:08:03,109 --> 01:08:02,000
industry is predicated on scale

1923
01:08:04,230 --> 01:08:03,119
so

1924
01:08:05,670 --> 01:08:04,240
um

1925
01:08:07,510 --> 01:08:05,680
but yeah that's great

1926
01:08:11,430 --> 01:08:07,520
that's a great example but it reminds me

1927
01:08:13,990 --> 01:08:11,440
of the stop and frisk cases in new york

1928
01:08:16,870 --> 01:08:14,000
there were a lot of people particularly

1929
01:08:18,870 --> 01:08:16,880
in some minority communities that said

1930
01:08:21,030 --> 01:08:18,880
hey the cops stop us a lot more than

1931
01:08:22,789 --> 01:08:21,040
they stop other people on the street and

1932
01:08:24,390 --> 01:08:22,799
they can frisk us

1933
01:08:26,390 --> 01:08:24,400
no no no no that doesn't happen well

1934
01:08:29,910 --> 01:08:26,400
when they actually get the data yeah

1935
01:08:32,309 --> 01:08:29,920
they did and that's twice as likely and

1936
01:08:34,709 --> 01:08:32,319
less likely to actually find an infrared

1937
01:08:36,870 --> 01:08:34,719
you know like a gun or stuff like that

1938
01:08:38,470 --> 01:08:36,880
so it's only it's it's another form of

1939
01:08:41,749 --> 01:08:38,480
date it's only when you get the data and

1940
01:08:44,630 --> 01:08:41,759
you go oh wow i guess the system has

1941
01:08:45,910 --> 01:08:44,640
been systemically biased in a way

1942
01:08:48,309 --> 01:08:45,920
and so

1943
01:08:50,630 --> 01:08:48,319
very very uh excellent that you would

1944
01:08:53,349 --> 01:08:50,640
point out face recognition is a part of

1945
01:08:54,630 --> 01:08:53,359
that because it's directly it's it's

1946
01:08:57,510 --> 01:08:54,640
perfect

1947
01:08:59,430 --> 01:08:57,520
so andrew what's next you you are an

1948
01:09:00,950 --> 01:08:59,440
excellent author your book is super well

1949
01:09:02,470 --> 01:09:00,960
written and you have another book as

1950
01:09:04,870 --> 01:09:02,480
well do you have another one in the

1951
01:09:06,709 --> 01:09:04,880
works are you gonna do that or just stay

1952
01:09:08,550 --> 01:09:06,719
with your day job

1953
01:09:11,510 --> 01:09:08,560
my sort of yeah i mean i'm a researcher

1954
01:09:13,510 --> 01:09:11,520
so i get i write papers now

1955
01:09:15,510 --> 01:09:13,520
you know and on this these kinds of

1956
01:09:17,110 --> 01:09:15,520
issues and publish work so that kind of

1957
01:09:18,470 --> 01:09:17,120
takes up my

1958
01:09:20,950 --> 01:09:18,480
writing i mean i yeah i don't i don't

1959
01:09:22,870 --> 01:09:20,960
have any i don't have really a book

1960
01:09:25,590 --> 01:09:22,880
uh i'm interested you know i'm i'm

1961
01:09:27,669 --> 01:09:25,600
interested in like pursuing

1962
01:09:30,229 --> 01:09:27,679
more these these questions around

1963
01:09:32,309 --> 01:09:30,239
you know yeah like the technical systems

1964
01:09:33,430 --> 01:09:32,319
and understanding complex complexity

1965
01:09:34,950 --> 01:09:33,440
theory and

1966
01:09:38,070 --> 01:09:34,960
um

1967
01:09:40,309 --> 01:09:38,080
things like that but i yeah

1968
01:09:41,189 --> 01:09:40,319
i'm always of course i'm i'm i'm i guess

1969
01:09:43,590 --> 01:09:41,199
i'm a

1970
01:09:45,269 --> 01:09:43,600
curious and easily distractable

1971
01:09:46,870 --> 01:09:45,279
person so i get interested in different

1972
01:09:49,430 --> 01:09:46,880
things and then we're kind of obsessive

1973
01:09:51,910 --> 01:09:49,440
well i'm sure you you know and then

1974
01:09:54,310 --> 01:09:51,920
but yeah my my job keeps me very

1975
01:09:56,790 --> 01:09:54,320
interested and busy for sure well let's

1976
01:09:59,430 --> 01:09:56,800
hope you remain just as curious as

1977
01:10:01,030 --> 01:09:59,440
you've been our guest again has been

1978
01:10:04,149 --> 01:10:01,040
andrew smart the book you're going to

1979
01:10:06,709 --> 01:10:04,159
want to check out beyond zero and one

1980
01:10:08,550 --> 01:10:06,719
terrific having you on thank you so much

1981
01:10:10,550 --> 01:10:08,560
thanks a lot thanks for having me

1982
01:10:13,110 --> 01:10:10,560
thanks again to andrew smart for joining

1983
01:10:15,590 --> 01:10:13,120
me today on skeptico one question i t up

1984
01:10:18,310 --> 01:10:15,600
from this interview why does a i seem to

1985
01:10:20,790 --> 01:10:18,320
be blind to the metaphysical question of

1986
01:10:22,310 --> 01:10:20,800
consciousness which as i

1987
01:10:24,790 --> 01:10:22,320
kind of put forth in this interview is

1988
01:10:25,990 --> 01:10:24,800
the only game in town it's the only

1989
01:10:27,990 --> 01:10:26,000
question

1990
01:10:30,149 --> 01:10:28,000
to ask and

1991
01:10:31,270 --> 01:10:30,159
you know the next level on that question

1992
01:10:33,750 --> 01:10:31,280
is

1993
01:10:35,910 --> 01:10:33,760
well the spiritual question

1994
01:10:37,750 --> 01:10:35,920
and you have to wonder if that's why

1995
01:10:40,149 --> 01:10:37,760
they don't answer part a is because they

1996
01:10:41,990 --> 01:10:40,159
don't really want to answer part b

1997
01:10:43,910 --> 01:10:42,000
so i need to break that down even

1998
01:10:45,830 --> 01:10:43,920
further i guess so it isn't totally

1999
01:10:47,189 --> 01:10:45,840
inside baseball

2000
01:10:49,830 --> 01:10:47,199
if you think

2001
01:10:51,510 --> 01:10:49,840
consciousness is an illusion and you're

2002
01:10:54,070 --> 01:10:51,520
going to play the shut up and calculate

2003
01:10:55,750 --> 01:10:54,080
game which is the only game in town for

2004
01:10:57,750 --> 01:10:55,760
ai

2005
01:10:59,189 --> 01:10:57,760
and andrew kind of threads the needle

2006
01:11:01,189 --> 01:10:59,199
there a little bit but at the end of the

2007
01:11:03,430 --> 01:11:01,199
day it's the only game in town

2008
01:11:05,270 --> 01:11:03,440
consciousness is an illusion

2009
01:11:07,830 --> 01:11:05,280
consciousness is an epiphenomenon of the

2010
01:11:10,550 --> 01:11:07,840
brain that's where you gotta be if

2011
01:11:11,669 --> 01:11:10,560
you're doing ai you're doing ai at

2012
01:11:14,070 --> 01:11:11,679
google or

2013
01:11:17,189 --> 01:11:14,080
facebook or twitter or more importantly

2014
01:11:18,950 --> 01:11:17,199
uh darpa or nsa or wherever you're doing

2015
01:11:21,590 --> 01:11:18,960
it anyways

2016
01:11:24,390 --> 01:11:21,600
so that's question number one but then

2017
01:11:27,830 --> 01:11:24,400
question number two is

2018
01:11:28,950 --> 01:11:27,840
if consciousness is not an illusion

2019
01:11:31,270 --> 01:11:28,960
then

2020
01:11:32,630 --> 01:11:31,280
what is the hierarchy of consciousness

2021
01:11:35,669 --> 01:11:32,640
like i always say

2022
01:11:36,870 --> 01:11:35,679
like the [\h__\h] god question you know

2023
01:11:38,709 --> 01:11:36,880
kind of

2024
01:11:40,390 --> 01:11:38,719
does e.t

2025
01:11:41,830 --> 01:11:40,400
have an nde

2026
01:11:45,510 --> 01:11:41,840
question

2027
01:11:46,950 --> 01:11:45,520
wouldn't want to talk about any of that

2028
01:11:49,669 --> 01:11:46,960
stuff

2029
01:11:52,390 --> 01:11:49,679
if you're doing ai

2030
01:11:56,229 --> 01:11:52,400
if your job was to just do a better

2031
01:11:58,790 --> 01:11:56,239
alphago machine learning and apply it to

2032
01:12:00,950 --> 01:11:58,800
search and everything else that'll make

2033
01:12:02,470 --> 01:12:00,960
billions and billions of dollars and

2034
01:12:06,070 --> 01:12:02,480
drive up the stock price on a lot of

2035
01:12:07,910 --> 01:12:06,080
google stock man drive it up drive it up

2036
01:12:09,590 --> 01:12:07,920
let me know your thoughts skeptical form

2037
01:12:11,590 --> 01:12:09,600
come on over play

2038
01:12:14,550 --> 01:12:11,600
lots more to come stay with me for all

2039
01:12:16,600 --> 01:12:14,560
of that until next time take care

2040
01:12:23,280 --> 01:12:16,610
bye for now